I worked in the Santa Fe marketing group prior to the merger. Even back then, we were interested in closing Oklahoma City and it had nothing to do with Willow Springs - or in keeping the Chicago-Texas trains that served it on schedule. The big problem was that all the traffic was inbound. Outbound traffic to anywhere on the system was minimal, which meant we wound up hauling most of the inbound trailers back to Chicago empty. At the time of the merger, we were still handling UPS into OKC, out of deference for the overall relationship and their desire that we continue the service. Presumably things have changed since then. But a few years earlier, in the late '80’s and early '90’s, we handled much more OKC intermodal business. Some of it was import traffic which had to make an awkward connection from Texas or Kansas City trains, and a bit of it may have been consumer goods, but apart from UPS it was mostly auto parts for the former GM assembly operation. We even had a Chicago-OKC train, 165 I believe, which handled a mix of auto parts boxcars and TOFC (the UPS traffic rode a higher priority train, 185 or 195). Even before the plant closed, we got out of that business, because, again, it was all inbound. We simply could not get outbound loads, and you just can’t make money that way.
Thank you. That clears a lot up.
I guess I had some bad information. I remember hearing that the BNSF had a need to simplify their network in order to improve on time performance. This meant they had to prioritize lanes and eliminate some of them. It was my understanding that Oklahoma City was “prioritized” out of business to make terminal space available for longer haul loads in a simplified terminal operation.
I guess what I heared was wrong. Thank you for the correction.
Fred:
I havent paid much attention to this thread lately. Thanks for the “sort times”.
MP 173 is obviously based on Milepost 173. For me it refers to milepost 173 on the Peoria - Evansville sub of the old Illinois Central. I grew up in a very small town between Olney and Newton Il. My hometown of Dundas, Il was actually on MP172, but the MP 173 sign was a couple hundred yards from our house.
I walked by that sign hundreds of times as a kid and adult, the railroad tracks back then were a path for people who wanted to hike, hunt, pick mushrooms, etc.
Sadly the IC line is gone.
Ed
Cach is a sort facility only. There are no delivery vehicles loaded there, everything arrives and leaves in trailers.
I am a UPS employee and have learned more about the UPS distribution system in Trains than from UPS.
Greyhounds said: “I remember hearing that the BNSF had a need to simplify their network in order to improve on time performance. This meant they had to prioritize lanes and eliminate some of them. It was my understanding that Oklahoma City was “prioritized” out of business to make terminal space available for longer haul loads in a simplified terminal operation. I guess what I heard was wrong…” Greyhounds, there may be some truth in what you heard. The philosophy of ‘prioritizing’ the allocation of limited system capacity to higher-margin traffic was certainly in place during my time at ATSF. However, there must have been more to the decision than Willow Springs being at full capacity - since, apparently, it never has been. Perhaps the train itself was at capacity, or the inclusion of an OKC block on the train caused some extra switching at one end or the other that was more expensive than the relatively small volume would justify. Maybe it was just a nagging operational headache to work that block. Whatever the catalyst for the decision to finally pull the pin on OKC, the traffic was relatively short-haul and imbalanced, and so would not have looked good on the profitability reports. My guess is that BNSF was looking for an opening and eventually found one, and it’s possible that improved train performance between Willow Springs and Alliance was part of their pitch to get UPS to buy in.
[tup]That was a great article! I only had a chance to read it myself last night.
With all this modern technology like Mi-Jack cranes, computers, and radio for up to the minute communication, it is amazing how there is still so much that is the “same as it ever was” for the last 170 years; turning empties into loads. Sort of like getting the right empty “grain boxes” in front of the right elevators, on the back track.[:D]
TRAINS, please keep on publishing articles like this.[tup]
Bruce
Fred:
As usual a good and interesting read with clear and substantive writing.
Your “comment” about UP and CSX was a bit snarky.
I would expect that type of cheap shot from our present day newspapers and their made to order sarcastic fourteen year old writer and editors!
Pasadena Bound:
What, I’m not supposed to have opinions? I’m not supposed to make your blood pressure rise? If I cannot do those things, what good am I?
Tee hee. Let’s calm down. I do not think very much of the corporate cultures of Union Pacific and CSX, you might surmise. And you would be correct. I do not think either railroad capable to running a Willow Springs. That is what I think, and there you have it.
Your turn.
Regards (really!),
Fred
In the OTR industry we call Certain areas of the Nation the Black Holes to go into. OKC is one of them if your any kind of Trailer. Why there is NEXT to NOTHING coming out of there they suck stuff in but Produce next to NOTHING. I know when I get sent there I am looking at a Deadhead to either Fort Smith or the DFW area for a Reload or If we are slow even the Wichita KS area to get out of there. What does that tell you about that area. I Looked at a Internet Load Board for OKC and there where 200 Trucks in there as of 6 AM with only 40 Loads OUT so far Toady.
Iron Eagle, this dialogue has been instructive to me. Another black hole is South Florida. Truckers hate to send their tractor-trailers 350 miles south into the state. It is totally unproductive. The drivers fight their way down I-95 and then contend with the traffic nightmare and there is nothing to backhaul because South Florida, like Oklahoma City, produces nothing. This may account for the success of Florida East Coast on a very short 350-mile route. Truckers do better giving southbound loads to FEC at Jax, letting FEC dray the trailers at the other end and send them back empty, while the tractors and drivers backhaul out of Savannah.
Fred Frailey
To expand a bit on your observation, Fred, it must be so bad down in the south part of Florida that truckers are willing to pay FEC to haul the empties back. Most of Santa Fe’s business into OKC was in rail-controlled trailers which they were obligated to reposition on their own dime.
Here is one of the Largest Black Holes in the OTR Industry actually unless your Pulling a Reefer Denver CO. You go into there with a Flat or Van and you can expect a 400-500 Mile Deadhead EASY out of there. With a Reefer you can normally get one out of the area with Potatoes or Beer from Golden with Coors. SLC is about as Bad unless your willing to go to Idaho to reload. However the Worst ones I know of is CA all over the place they suck in so MUCH but anymore it can take about 3-4 days to get out of there.
My son works 3PL and deals with this all the time. I didnt realize OKC was such a black hole. Is there no manufacturing there? I understand there is considerable oil production in the area, but there is nothing else?
Ed
Maybe we should start a seperate thread on how overall freight flows and balance, and these ‘black holes’ in particular, affect the structure of the industry and its service offerings. What I find fascinating about this is how truckers are free to ‘triangulate’ all over the place in search of the next load (to anywhere), while the railroads’ options are much more limited. Fred, maybe there’s even a future article idea for you.
Even before GM closed their Plant there it was a Black hole. Why is it a Black hole for Companies simple it lacks 3 things Supplies Labor and a Major Market for things that they could make. Actually the Oil in the area is more in the area of Tulsa and Big Springs. The biggest part of OKC being a Black hole is that with Tinker AFB there they just consume more than they ever could Produce.
CNSF we are Not actually Free to do what you say we have our Costs we need to cover like Truck Payments Taxes on the Income we get and FUEL that alone is running me close to 60 cents a MILE before I even TURN A WHEEL. With my truck payment Taxes Fuel and Fuel Taxes Road Taxes I need to Average over 2.25 a MILE just to turn a PROFIT on anything I make and that is when I START TO GET PAID. 4 Years ago I got by for less than 50% if not a bigger discount. I used to profit at a Buck a mile in 2008 before Fuel Prices Jumped. Now I refuse to even turn my key on for less than 2.40 a mile for all miles from where I am sitting.
Sure like your perspectives, IronEagle. They show rail opportunities as well as woes that you share with the rails. I always wish truckers well as enterprising, hardworking hombres who could be role models for SOME, by no means all, railroaders who think the world, or their company, owes them a living.
Hi Iron Eagle, I didn’t mean to imply that truckers have it easy, it’s just that their constraints and formulas for success are different than those of railroads. Here’s an example of what I mean. When I worked at CN, there was a lot more freight moving from Toronto to Canada’s maritime provinces (NB, NS, PEI) than there was coming back west. CN’s only option in that lane was to work as hard as possible and price as low as possible to get as much of that westbound freight as it could, and even then it had to haul some empties back some of the time. However, the maritime provinces exported more to the northeastern US states than they imported. So the truckers got headhaul rates from Toronto to the maritimes, then another headhaul rate from the maritimes to NY, NJ, and PA, where they then looked for loads back ‘home’ to Toronto. CN didn’t have that option - it doesn’t serve that ‘triangle’. On the other hand, CN could afford to sit on empties for a few days waiting for outbound loads because it only had trailers waiting, not drivers and tractors, too. So CN was more constrained by limited lanes, while the truckers had to worry more about how quickly they could get the next load. Sadly, it’s never easy to make money.
Before FEC was taken over by its current owners (Fortress Investment Group?), company management was considering working a Meridian-Speedway-in-reverse deal with NS, which would have had FEC furnishing the money to upgrade NS’s Macon, GA to Jacksonville line. FEC could then pick up trailers bound for Miami in Macon and haul the empty trailers back to Macon for the truckers. That would have left truckers to pick up loads in Macon, Atlanta or Birmingham without too long a deadhead move.
South FL is not to much of a Black Hole if your Pulling a Reefer Trailer you can Always find something coming out like Seafood Produce you may not make that much Profit doing it but you can get out of there. I for one refuse to go into there as I hate the Rates I am offered out of there. Another Place that is a Huge and I mean HUGE Black Hole for all types of Freight into it is Las Vegas NV Last Time I was in there I ended up Bouncing to Bakersfield CA to get a Reload out and still barely Broke even. The Bakken Shale Region right now is becoming one but the Rates they pay into it hell I would run it if I had a Flatbed. They are screaming so much for Drilling Pipe and other needed stuff that if your willing to haul it into there you can NAME YOUR PRICE it seems. Just expect to DEADHEAD OUT. I know of people that are Hauling in and Coming home Empty and Still making a Profit that should tell you something on the Rates being paid there right now.