Question / Opinion solicitation – with the detail and reliability (*) of plastic locos (proto2k, heritage, genesis, etc), what are the pros & cons of owning brass these days? I see brass stuff come and go on ebay more frequently lately. But its a lot more expensive, typically not painted, and the detail level seems to be generally sub-par to the aforementioned plastic locos. So what’s the motivation for brass anymore?
(*) The term “teliability” being subject to some interpretation… 
Simple, if you want a particular model that isn’t produced in plastic, you can usually find it in brass.
Understand that the collecting of brass models is a shadow hobby unto itself and for the most part not particularly related to the segment of hobbyists who run their trains. We of the “operating” side of the hobby see only the fraction of brass collectors who are running their trains. The majority of brass collectors have little interaction with us and are often not layout builders. While the number of brass collectors has shrunk over the years, there continues to be a nucleus of this group who will continue to purchase brass models regardless of what changes take place in the plastic side of the hobby. Also appreciate that brass train models are only a segment of the total brass market…and often the least expensive part!
And…if you think that today’s plastic models rival brass, then you’ve never seen a quality brass model close up.
CNJ831
I have two brass ‘doodlebugs’–One is a scratchbuild which is in great shape and works really well and the other is made by a company I’m still trying to decipher–well worn–this one is a replica of a McKeen model–details are quite good on them—I use mine–both painted and being brass --Heavy. I’m not too into collecting them for a museum type display—if I find them and they are of a model I’m looking for then I’ll buy them
Hmm-- that’s a good observation that I wasn’t really aware of. Who are these people with endless purses that can buy all this stuff anyway??? Is that what all those financial CEO’s are spending their bailout money on???
Actually I haven’t seen many brass trains close up, mostly just in pictures. And when I do get a chance to see one up close, there usually isn’t anything plastic around to compare it too. I did see some centipedes on ebay the other day that looked really nice. Can’t get those in plastic though (the point made by the first respondent) In fact there were two complete brass centipede sets up for sale. It took me awhile to clean the drool off my monitor. They did really look nice, I’ll freely admit. And would look equally nice on my layout… wonder if congress is looking to spend a little more of that bailout money…
At one time it’s certainly true that brass engines were virtually always only available unpainted, and often didn’t run all that well - but it was the only way to get an accurate model of many classes of engines, both steam and diesel. In recent years as noted plastic/metal engines have greatly improved in quality and detailing. Brass manufacturers have responded, over the last 20 years or so brass engines with greater detailing than ever plus excellent decorating and smooth running mechanisms have become common.
Brass is still often the only way to get really accurate models of many types of steam engines. Except for BLI’s Heavy Mikado, there aren’t any accurate RTR versions of Great Northern engines for example, with their belpaire fireboxes. Often now manufacturers seem to line up to make models of the same engines, like UP 4-8-4’s or N&W J class 4-8-4’s yet the only way to get a model of a Northern Pacific 4-8-4 (the railroad that first bought and named the class “Northerns”) is brass.
Are they sturdy? I have always had the impression that brass was kinda fragile in a bent-metal sort of way…?? I’ve never held one in my hands so it could easily be a mistaken impression.
CNJ831, what is the picture in your avatar? Is that a model railroad? If so, are there more photos of it online somewhere?
I would love to see more pictures of the layout where CNJ831’s avatar came from.
When I was younger, it seemed there were certain “stages” to being a model railroader that marked your rights of passage. The first was going from Lionel or American Flyer to HO. The second was going from snap track to flex track or handlaid. Then came replacing the X2F couplers with Kadee (although many skipped this step for later). Then came assembling some sort of craftsman kit be it a structure or freight car. Then came decaling. And then came buying your first brass locomotive.
The “funny” thing is, going way back before my youth to the years right after WWII, the big deal about Japanese brass was that it was cheap– cheaper than American die cast steam! When I was a boy our parish priest was an HO modeler and he had a brass NYC Hudson that he bought in the late 1940s. I seem to recall he told me he paid around $20 for it — list price! I think it was Tenshodo. He may have bought it while in the service in Japan – many servicemen did.
Since I have decided to model the 1960s and not the steam era it is unlikely I will ever buy another brass locomotive, but I am glad I have the few I do. I agree with the above poster that a really high quality brass locomotive is still an impressive piece of modeling, AND can be a very accurate replica of a prototype that no plastic or mass market manufacturer is likely to bring out. I would have to think that dedicated Western Pacific modelers for example still seek out the PFM and NWSL brass WP steam. I have a CB&Q brass 4-8-2 that is unlikely ever to be offered in mass produced form. It is a beauty. Unfortunately I no longer recall WHY I bought it! []
Having said all that a couple of years ago I did plunk down some serious coin for two gorgeous brass Overland C&NW bay window cabooses in the red paint scheme becau
You may just be seeing a proliferation of folks selling off their older/more mediocre brass items. Like plastic, not all brass renditions are/were top notch as far as quality.
I agree that if you want a hard-to-find, unique, road-specific locomotive or car, brass oftentimes may still be your only option.
Tom
jwhitten; As far as I’m concerned they are sturdy–I had one sort of do a first turn slide against the wall derail along the backside of the ‘willisburg’ yard—taking 3 buildings out with it—but didn’t do any damage to it—but it does have heft I’ll tell you–
How heavy are they? (I’m assuming they’re about 70-80 scale feet long???)
As mentioned by others, the variety and prototypic accuracy are the key reasons to look at brass. If you look (speaking here of HO) at the offerings of geared locomotives or narrow gauge, there hasn’t been much offered in plastic. I grant that many of today’s plastic locomotives are wonderful in terms of their operation and fidelity to prototype. With the explosion of usage of DCC and sound, many of the brass locomotives are difficult to convert. Especially for newer modelers, I would clearly recommend most all of these newer quality plastic locomotives over brass.
As with many modelers, I have acquired more locomotives over the years than fit on my shelf layout. I can accomodate 8 locomotives on the layout, and smooth operation is one of the qualifiers for assignment to use. Of those, 3 are brass… and two of those three have received re-motoring or electronic changes to improve operation. My other brass locomotives are on the display shelf most of the time.
My “gripe” about brass is that brass prices have not responded to the downturn in the economy. Over the past several years, I have visited a number of brass dealers at train shows. A locomotive that I know was around $200 new has had a price tag of $600 on it for years now. The same box is on the same dealer’s table year after year with no reduction in price and no discussion allowed on reducing that price. With the quality of the plastic models, and the increased variety, there should be some adjustment on the price of older brass. If it hasn’t sold at that cost in YEARS, maybe the price is set too high. Just because it is “rare” does not mean that it needs to be overpriced.
Bill
Hmmm… makes you wonder. I’m supposing that the brass stuff is nearly completely handmade? So that each one is slightly different (though perhaps in just little ways) ? If so that says something about both the level of craftsmanship and wages of folks in Korea at that time… and probably China and parts thereabouts today as well. Are the prices overseas still cheap for brass? Is it just the importers marking them up a billion and a half percent that makes them so expensive?
This is strictly an OScale point of view:
Up until about 20 years ago the plastic stuff in O scale was junk. It was sold by atlas, weaver, ahm, etc. There were few locos available. Atlas had their F9’s and industrial switchers (both junk) weaver did not sell any and AHM had FM C-liners (JUUUUUNK). All-nation had it’s lines of die-cast locos that were bullet proof but needed alot of detail work to get them to be a good looking loco. Or there was brass.
As far as rolling stock, atlas and intermountain make well detailed cars. I have mostly plastic cars but I like the brass because the steps don’t snap off like the plastic. Brass prices have come down alot in recent years and hopefully, some day, I will replace most or all of my plastic with brass.
Today we have many options for plastic diesels. The best from Atlas and P&D. Atlas needs to get better drives. Right now I buy all unpowered locos from Atlas and repower with P&D drives. But steam… only about 5 plastic steam locos have ever been made. Most USRA models being sold in every railroad’s paint scheme. Brass is the only way to go.
I have some brass, but only for those modles I need I can not find/modify in plastic. For example: GMD1 (in NAR paint); Hillcrest No.10; RS23; RS18 (before the current plastic version); CP cabooses; CP “Grove” series passenger cars, plus a bunch more. For Canadian prototypes, sometimes brass is the only option.
A lot of the motive power needed to be re-worked to run well, all needed to be painted and all are run. They are not collectors items.
I have met the collectors and they just cringe with what I have done to my brass as in their eyes it seriously devalues them. This includes the painting, extra details added and re-motoring/gearing.
A lot of people feel the same way about their corvettes (or other cars) and all they want to do is sit around and polish them. For me, I’d rather drive 'em around and have some fun. Life is too short to spend all day waxing. Gotta take the t-tops off and feel the breeze in your hair! (Oh, and just to keep this on-topic… gotta drive the vette down to watch the trains and then over to the hobby store to pick up some brass locos…
Well, before robots, cars were all hand-assembled - on a production line, from standard parts all of which had been manufactured to the same tight tolerances. The same is true for commercially built brass locomotives. There is very little variance from one to another in the same production run.
Most of my locomotives are brass - not because I have any special love for brass, but because that was the way Japanese-prototype locomotives were fabricated in the 1960s. (I even have a couple of obvious toys which have brass superstructures and assembled brass frames.) That said, I don’t much care whether a specific locomotive is brass, die-cast zinc alloy, pewter, plastic or compressed shirt cardboard. Once painted and placed in service, who can tell?
(If you figure that I’m an operator, not a collector, you got it in one.)
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I have to agree with Bill about the older brass engines being difficult to convert to DCC (let alone DCC/sound). As I am typing this post, I can look on the bookcase and see my two remaining brass engines: a 19th century mogul, and a 2-8-0 Ma & Pa Consolidation. I have had these locomotives for years; and have never gotten around to having them painted. Some time ago I decided to see if either one of these beauties could be converted to at least DCC. The answer was NO. Simply put there wasn’t enough room for a decoder (let alone speaker) although the Consolidation was a strong “maybe” (throw enough money at something and you will accomplish the task).
With the proliferation of quality plastic models (or brass/diecast/plastic hybrids), there doesn’t seem to be a demand for brass anymore…outside of the collector market. At one of the model railroad shows, my wife and vendor, we had people standing in line - bidding on an old Gem American 4-4-0. I explained that this was a poor running engine that had no hope of conversion to DCC. The final buyer (who outbid 3 others) said he didn’t care as it was going on display…furthermore he explained he didn’t run any of his locomotives!
I currently own two Bachmann Spectrum 4-4-0s that would put that old Gem engine to shame. Both of the Bachmann engines run light years better and turn circles around that brass Gem in the looks department. BTW: that Gem sold for twice the price of a brand new Bachmann!! Go figure.
Ray