Near my home in New York, there is a construction project involving a replacement of an overpass over the CSX mainline. The bridge was closed mid-June, but there has been little activity since. The local paper reported the story (link below), excerpt here:
“The project has been delayed due to communication issues between the contractor and CSX. At this point the delay is 100 percent on CSX.” Scimone said part of the delay was the unavailability of rail road construction flaggers for the project. A railroad flagger is assigned to projects to ensure the safe passage of trains or on-track equipment by communicating with trains regarding the movement of construction equipment near tracks.
This got me to thinking a few things. First, since this project has been planned for some time, it would seem that there should have been plenty of time for the contractor and CSX to come to an agreement on a schedule for a flagger. Second, who bears the cost of the RR flagger? It would seem like the RR would be reimbursed for the cost as part of the cost of the project.
Anyone out there with knowledge about these types of projects? What is the usual protocol in terms of scheduling and costs?
http://www.oneidadispatch.com/general-news/20150829/bridge-work-resumes-may-take-until-november
Will come back to this when I get the time, but:
(1) Suspect there is sticker shock over CSX insurance policy (CSX is famous for that, doesn’t help that their Hemet, CA Risk Manager subconsultant, also used by BNSF, is not altogether on the ball, aloof and less than cordial) RRPP is not cheap.
(2) Not sure I want to buy the logal govt. agency claim that it’s solely the railroad causing the delay. (State of Oregon DOT got kicked off all projects in Oregon for 6 months over UP R/W because they got stooooopid last fall. Some of us are a little amused by the Newswire story from yesterday, they might have 3 FRA compliant people?)
(3) Contractor pays for the 214 qualified construction flagman, part of the project cost passed on to the state. If the contractor left this out of his propposal estimate, double shame on him. If he set up shop with out a safety management plan, he’s doomed (may be the case here, CSX not gonna hold his hand for the life of the project)…If the contractor failed to railroad safety train his people, he’s dead in the water as well.
(4) When the project went through the Application/Decision process administered by a different section of the state (Rail section of NYSDOT, formerly the PSC railroad commission)the state/local/railroad portions would be agreed to prior to commencement of work. (any public road project over about any railroad in any state works in a similar fashion)
…in so many words, the article is not passing the smell test from a railroader’s perspective.
Railroads deal with contractors all the time; contractors deal with railroads not so much of the time. Protocols for safety and liability around railroads are pretty well established (have seen detailed policy information on either or both of the UP or BNSF websites in the past) but are apparently not looked into by contractors when making bids and schedules unless they have been through the drill before or somebody actually has a clue about things like that.
When the failure to do the homework causes schedule or budget disruptions, the predictable reaction is finger pointing on both sides: contractor’s index finger, railroad’s non-index finger. Then you get the linked article.
Or as my late father-in-law put it: “When you are up to your hiney in alligators, it’s time to admit you should have drained the swamp.”
My viewpoint on manpower planning is that the counts for conductors/trainmen done by the ‘powers’ do not take into account the flagging jobs that are required to be filled by T&E personnel, therefore, the availability of a qualified flagman on any given day is open to question.
In my experience flagging jobs on this type of construction project were generally done by maintenance of way personnel. The focus is on keeping the r-o-w and track clear when a train is planned. While T&E folks have rules qualification, theirs is a different skill set. A track guy is better since he knows more about keeping track safe to operate on. And if somehow the track gets damaged, he can start the corrective process and contact the additional resources immediately.
John
Depends upon the agreements that are in place - some properties it goes to MofW, other properties it goes to T&E.
Have had protection from both crafts in the Chicago area on CSX, depending where you were in relation to the terminal. Certain UP lines, mostly ex-SP , in terminal areas can claim the same. IMHO- I can buy TE&Y guys in terminal areas providing protection, other places not so much. (The railroads need to better get across to a limited few that they are out there as a flagman for safety reasons instead of just randomly pulling folks off the extra board and throwing them out there without a clue as to purpose or perfomance of task. Some disinterested TE&Y guys almost got a survey crew killed in Sacramento. Conductor I worked with east of Chicago on CSX/BOCT really tried to understand and work with us in spite of never having flagged before. Some folks care, others don’t - scary)
When I was installing power line communications in the 80’s we had to cross RR lines. Our Real Estate Dept. had to negotiate the crossing agreements and some of the RR’s were notorious for being difficult to deal with. If they felt you had disrespected them, forget it hell could freeze before they would agree to anything. Eventually you would get your permit and could schedule the work and watchmen but on the RR’s terms and schedule. It’s their property and they defend it as thay should. But you need a deferential attitude to get anything done.
Even so, another Electrical Engineer chose to throw the fiber optic cable over the tracks and the crews got it pulled up and secured to the poles without getting clearance. As Sgt Schultz said, “I Know nutting”.
Lucky they didn’t end up with a 3 piece cable.
Last year NS used a C&S guy for an overhead bridge repair project near Lehighton. Line was not busy - a lot of trains run at night - and he was there to check that the track was clear before allowing any train that showed up to proceed. No real risk of damage to the track - it was just fouled by those rubber-tired cherry-pickers or man-lifts, which were off to the side of the track, but their booms were overhead.
Short line Delaware-Lackawanna was using a brakeman a month or so ago for a similar operation - PennDOT inspection of an overhead bridge.
Lots on contractors and owners don’t understand or underestimate the portal-to-portal pay basis of some RR employees (travel time and mileage), plus overtime and other extras, and esp. the health, welfare, and pension plus union dues additives - can be more than the base hourly rate - etc.
- Paul North.
The problem is the mindset of the owner (city) and contractors. What they need to recognize is the following (from a sign I saw in New York City about 3 years ago):
"This is not a construction site with a railroad running through it.
It is an operating railroad with some construction on the side."
- Paul North.
For government contract work, I’ve never seen a labor multiplier less than 2.5, with 3 to 3.5 being a lot more common. Doesn’t surprise me one bit that the various costs add up to some serious money.
I’d wonder if it would be worthwhile for the AAR or some similar body to come up with a downloadable brochure with lots of examples on just what can go wrong with construction around an operating railroad.
Tolstoy, move over!
One other consideration is the timing of the communication of the contractor. My experience with RR flaggers is because they are craft jobs, it has to be advertised to the members and bids taken and awarded. This process can take weeks or months. Only if there are no qualified bidders is the work assigned. So the contractor just can’t call up and say, “we need a flagger tomorrow” (or next week) and get one.
Short notice flagging can be requested, nominally the week ahead, or even the day ahead; however, the likelyhood of NOT getting a flagger goes up exponetially with shortness of the notice. Also there is a greater likelyhood of NOT getting a flagger if the hours are outside of the normal daylight work periods. There is also a great likelyhood of NOT getting your flagger if it is only requested for one or two days during the week.
On my carrier Train Messages identifying the locations of Flagmen must be issued at least 14 hours prior to the start of the flagging time. It does no good to have a flagger on site if the trains don’t know that there is a flagger at a location. When it is determined that the flag position wasn’t filled, then the Train Dispatcher must notify all trains that have the flagging message that is has been annulled.
We currently have a territory that has 4 MofW work areas and 3 T&E flagmen - Trains have to contact each of these to get Permission to pass through the locations. A whole lot of communication must take place within a 100 mile territory that is running 50 to 60 trains during daylight hours.
The permit process, hassle and cost has probably led to several of these “renegade” wire crossings.
I remember in the late 1990’s NS increased their wireline crossing permits (on existing crossings) from $7,000 to $50,000. At that time, I am sure they were getting barraged with applications, but even with the higher price waiting 6-12 weeks for an answer was not always an option if you were a contractor for a major communication company racing to build a network. Stop, Look, Listen and Lash happened more often than you think.
Lack of planning on the contractor or utility’s part shouldn’t be the railroad’s problem. The all too typical initial asking for the permit with the contractor’s construction equipment at the R/W line needs to stop. Consulting engineer and contractor share the blame on those.
Add another to PDN’s list of railroad commentary: “An automatic emergency on your part doesn’t require an immediate response on my part.”#### …and then there’s the nonsense that happens all the time like what hit the newswire today in Minneapolis. “Build it first. Ask for forgiveness later.”(Corollary: Just do something, even if it’s wrong”)
Re: erikem: Those multipliers are supposed to include a generous proportion of profit for the contractor - 25% is common, I’ve been told - esp. in the consulting / service sectors (as distinguished from construction). For the railroad flagger, it’s just to recoup the out-of-pocket costs of him/ her.
Re: BaltACD, and others: Suppose you’re a railroad manager. You have a contractor asking for a flagger, which has to be a rules-qualified person. What’s in it for you ? Dollar-for-dollar reimbursement at best.
Meanwhile, you also have all kinds of trains tying up the yards and mainlines for lack of qualified crews - incurring various delay and extra costs and penalties/ rebates of the charges (UPS train, anyone ?), and/ or also incurring the “opportunity cost” of lost revenue due to the shippers using other modes (truck, etc.) - might be on the order of $3,000 to $10,000 per hour.
So if you have a limited number of qualified, rested pesonnel - which service are you going to assign them to ? How would you explain the contractor flagging to your boss ?
BaltACD also mentioned communications. I’m sure that during a busy season, everyone appreciates [heavy sarcasm here] the added volume between the flagman, the trains and DS.
Maybe another time some comments about how this situation might be avoided by structuring the Public Utility Commission approval and City construction contracts to be more pro-active and railroad-favorable.
- Paul North.
Tolstoy would seem like Reader’s Digest or a Little Golden Book by comparison.
Agreed.
I’m guessing the dirty feathered guy has enough stories alone to make Tolstoy seem terse by comparison. My thought was more like a Classics Illustrated approach, with the right amount of graphics to appeal to short attention spans
Look! A squirrel!
Bottom line for the contractors is they can’t afford to pay for the flagging, they certainly can’t afford to pay up if something goes wrong. In addition, if they are so poor at planning that they can’t properly schedule flag protection, then there is good cause to wonder if they are any good at safety.
On a slightly different tack - Electronliner brought up the bootleg wire crossing. I’d wonder if the RR would be on the hook if they unintentionally severed the cable.
- Erik