Sometimes they “thumbed their noses” at us in truly unethical ways.
-Kevin
[quote user=“ATLANTIC CENTRAL”]
Sheldon, I doubt if anybody here has missed your loathing of DCC all I am relaying are my experiences, not trying to start an argument.
My point remains that in the 12-14v power range my DCC locomotives work well. It has to be remembered that there are a lot of people visiting this forum just for advice - this thread has had more than 3,000 views - and who knows some of them may have been considering buying a DCC with sound locomotive that there are no alternatives for and were wondering whether or not it would work on standard DC and the answer to that is indeed it does. Most modelers don’t have your ability to gut and rewire locomotives, or don’t have the time to do so if they have the ability, so making the less experienced feel that the manufacturer’s claims and the results of the old tests that this publication used to do giving the results in both DC and DCC are not worth considering is disingenuous. You say “The point remains that for those running traditional voltage levels in DC (12-14 volts) …dual mode decoders are not an acceptable option.” I am one of the us you are referring to and whilst I do agree with you that DC ready is prefferable this fact remains DCC does work. It may not be an acceptable option to you but others may either be happy with the preformance or will be content to live with the shortcomings they percieve. I will finally add that there is an advantage to a DCC with sound set-up on DC, that being that with a small voltage the lights are activated and there are some sounds on the newer decoders while the model is stationary.
TheFlyingScotsman
Mike, if I am getting you correctly I agree that it is annoying that these days BLI stuff can’t be muted without a DCC programming track. Back in the day there was the option to turn up or d
[quote user=“TheFlyingScotsman”]
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
Sheldon, I doubt if anybody here has missed your loathing of DCC all I am relaying are my experiences, not trying to start an argument.TheFlyingScotsman
Mike, if I am getting you correctly I agree that it is annoying that these days BLI stuff can’t be muted without a DCC programming track. Back in the day there was the option to turn up or down the sound with a magnetic reed whereas the last 2 or 3 I’ve bought have left me with no oprion but to take the tender body off and pull the plug on the speakers. But that’s where we are today and as maligned as MTH sometimes are to the end they allowed the DC user to adjust the sound and smoke unit with a screwdriver.
The point remains that for those running traditional voltage levels in DC (12-14 volts) and those of us running higher quality/newer technolgy Pulse Width Modulated DC throttles, dual mode decoders are not an acceptable option.
Only a locomotive without a DCC decoder will perform properly for us. Broadway had thumbed its nose at us for decades even as we still represent nearly half the active modelers.
Broadway may finally be realizing just how much business they have lost to Walthers, Athearn, Bowser, Atlas, Bachmann, Rapido and others still offering DC/DCC ready locomotives.
No decoders left in locos here, sound disabled or not.
I actually did pretty good years ago selling those Bachmann basic decoders that I removed from 20 or so locomotives to install the DC jumper pins.
Smoke - I NEVER had any interest in that, a sm
[quote user=“ATLANTIC CENTRAL”]
I did read you post and responded to the points I don’t agree with.
Do agree re the isolator / bypass. I suppose DCC ready is as close as we get to that and provides the benefit to the modeller of choosing the decoder of their choice. After the last few years of poor customer satisfaction it will be interesting to see if the DCC guys take that chance over factory installed. Were I a DCC operator I would but it won’t get away from some of the basic pick-up issues that have been noted over recent years. We shall see. TBH my roster is full now so unless something I haven’t even realised I wanted comes along I will be watching this from the sidelines with curiosity.
TheFlyingScotsman
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
Sheldon, I doubt if anybody here has missed your loathing of DCC all I am relaying are my experiences, not trying to start an argument.TheFlyingScotsman
Mike, if I am getting you correctly I agree that it is annoying that these days BLI stuff can’t be muted without a DCC programming track. Back in the day there was the option to turn up or down the sound with a magnetic reed whereas the last 2 or 3 I’ve bought have left me with no oprion but to take the tender body off and pull the plug on the speakers. But that’s where we are today and as maligned as MTH sometimes are to the end they allowed the DC user to adjust the sound and smoke unit with a screwdriver.
The point remains that
So in my 10 minute scan of the “HO Scale Model Railroading” group of facebook today I stumbled on a guy asking the DCC vs DC question, asking others what they use and why.
At about 140 replies, I did a count.
DCC = 60%
DC = 40%
Interestingly the same percentages I have observed on this forum.
Over 25 years into DCC, and Broadway has ignored roughly half the market for most of the time they have been in business.
I don’t spend much time on facebook, it makes me nuts. But it would appear there are lots of “beginner modelers” and many seem to think DCC is too expensive or not important for their goals.
And I must admit, that surprises me becuase I would have thought that sound would be a bigger draw to new people then it appears to be?
I still think most new people should go DCC unless they are really willing to learn and evaluate their needs first and then make an informed choice either way.
AND, I will say again if Broadway or any other manufacturer is listening, I would prefer to be able to buy non sound DC locos, but would find acceptable DCC locos that are designed to be easily “back converted” to DC, taking the decoder out, or out of the circuit so they wil work on my PWM DC throttles.
Sheldon
If a beginner modeler just wants to run trains and build scenery, I don’t find that surprising at all.
How many new modelers get DCC with their first trains? Is there even a DCC equipped starter set out there for newbies?
-Kevin
Bachmann has several sets with DCC and DCC w/sound.
With or without DCC, the casual nature and sometimes medium to large size of some of these layouts is interestng.
Sheldon
Im sure you saw the bli " stealth video , bob is annoyed that we dont want his "outstanding electronics"sacrasm off
he gets a few backhanded comments of not getting all the features in decoders that he provides but we are the paying customer .
It is obvious that bob grubba hears scale trains footsteps with their " steam release" coming up so they had to do somethin
No, I had not seen it until looking it up just now.
No surprises there, Bob Grubba talking down to us like we are people who just buy expensive RTR toys. Of course that is his “view” of the hobby.
I think when you combine those who want to install the decoder of their choice, and the remaining DC market, there may well be more market for this now than there was when the tried it briefly before.
Bob would likely cringe at my Broadway locos sporting their ATLANTIC CENTRAL lettered Bachmann tenders.
Anyway, we will see how this plays out.
It was interesting to hear him make excusses for the “generic” Pacifics, while Bachmann still manages to change a bell
I think BLI’s move is a smart one. I would much rather install my own motor-only or sound decoder than have one that’s preinstalled. It also allows me to install the speaker of my choice. For the DC user, they can run it as is - i.e. presuming there are no issues with the 21-pin connector board.
Generally I just want motor-only decoders - particular in diesel locomotives. With steam I do enjoy sound…but in doses. Sometimes it’s just nice to only hear the clickity-clack of the metal wheel rolling over the track joints, which I find soothing to the ear.
Tom
For the most part I did, Kevin. I started out with two DCC-ready locomotives and installed decoders in both of them. I then purchased a Bachmann E-Z Command (for 50% off MSRP) and used/enjoyed it (with its limitations) for about a year before picking up my NCE Power Cab in 2006, when it first came out. It was great to be able to operate each locomotive independently. The capability jump from the E-Z Command to the Power Cab was also night 'n day.
DC is a fine alternative if you aren’t interested in the capabilities of DCC. DCC can also be as simple or as complicated/expensive as you want it to be. For me, I have no problem whichever operating system someone chooses.
Tom
I think their own marketing and bad timing made the original Stealth offerings unsuccessful. Although I did my part back then, I bought two Stealth undecorated READING T1’s.
The company was not very old then, the product not proven, they had already thumbed their nose at DC/non sound operators, and I think that was a time when many well established HO modelers with nice layouts were moving from DC to DCC.
And, installing your own sound decoders had limited choices then.
While I still expect most new people to end up in DCC, and I was surprised at my own observation on facebook the other day, I think at this point the established modelers who are still running DC will pretty much continue with DC. And that might easily be 20% of modelers, with DC beginners being the other 20%.
The real question is, how many new, as in new production, locomotives are those two groups buying? And at what price points?
I have Bowser DC locos preodered, and thinking about one or two more. But after 55 years, 140 locos, and with my conservative buying habits (only buying what I plan to run), my want list is pretty short.
A C&O Mikado, or two, would be a nice addition, but not necessary to protect the schedule at an opps session.
Sound is a real non starter f
My story is similar to Tom’s. Growing up (a long time ago) in Germany, I had a Maerklin layout. When I got back into model railroading here in the US when my son was about 4 years old, a colleague emphasized that I should go for DCC. I did, with a Digitrax Zephyr set, and I have never looked back. At that time, 20 years ago, sound was not yet common. Thus, you bought DC engines and installed the decoder yourself. I learned soldering by installing a decoder in Bachmann’s saddle-tank 0-6-0. After soldering seven wires to contacts about 1/16th of an inch apart, nothing can scare you anymore.
I have to admit that most of my brass engines are still DC; only a few have been converted to DCC. However, I have installed a DPDT switch to convert the layout from DCC to DC.
JW
I hear you, Sheldon. I have about 1/2 the number of locomotives that you do and a number of them are duplicates for loco “projects” that will most likely never be manufactured.
Unless BLI releases something totally new, I don’t have any plans to pick up any NYC locomotives from them in the near future. (I might make an exception if they produced a NYC 4-6-2 Mercury.) Most of my acquisitions in past few years have been used brass and I’ve enjoyed adding some unique models to my NYC roster.
Tom
I have not bought another locomotive in quite some time.
My want list is also very short.
I would like a N&W 2-6-6-4, and I will probably buy the Key brass model. The fact I already had the BLI models sticks in my craw.
Still kicking around different options for a 2-8-0 to paint for the Dawdle And Delay.
And that’s about it.
-Kevin