Broken Rail Question

Trains Magazine General Discussion
1

I was recently told a pretty interesting–and fortunate–story from back home.

My home town of Mt. Olive, Illinois is served by the Norfolk Southern on the ex Wabash Decatur-St. Louis line. It is a very busy line. I would say about 20-30 trains a day.

Well anyway, my Dad (or one of his friends) was listening to the scanners, and the Mt. Olive police called the dispatcher and said, “hey, something goofy is going on, all of the crossings in town are down, but there hasn’t been a train for about 30 minutes.”

The dispatcher then got with the trainmaster (or someone else on the railroad), which eventually led to “well you’re the trainmaster, and you can do what you want as boss, but, if it were me, I would stop the trains.” To whcih, I the trainmaster said, “OK, you convinced me, but it is probably nothing, and I am going to catch he!! for this.”

Really good thing too, as it turns out, the ribon rail had pulled apart near one of the crossings. Apparently, there was not enough ballast under it, which caused it to pull appart.

Questions:

(1) This is a fairly well maintained line, with 60 mph freights and what seems like ample ballast. If lack of ballast can pull apart a weld on a heavy duty rail on this line, shouldn’t it be happening all over the country on less maintained lines? This is especially true, when it is considered that there aren’t a lot of heavy coal trains on this line.

(2) How is it that the last train to cross this rail did not derail? I would think a rail pulled appart would almost certainly derail a trian–especially as fast as they tend to move trains on this line. Surely a train going over the weld is what casued it to split.

(3) There are about 5 crossings in town spaced out in a little under a mile, how would this make all of the corssings go off?

(4) Would this cause a red light on the line.

(5) I feel like I

2

[quote user=“gabe”]

I was recently told a pretty interesting–and fortunate–story from back home.

My home town of Mt. Olive, Illinois is served by the Norfolk Southern on the ex Wabash Decatur-St. Louis line. It is a very busy line. I would say about 20-30 trains a day.

Well anyway, my Dad (or one of his friends) was listening to the scanners, and the Mt. Olive police called the dispatcher and said, “hey, something goofy is going on, all of the crossings in town are down, but there hasn’t been a train for about 30 minutes.”

The dispatcher then got with the trainmaster (or someone else on the railroad), which eventually led to “well you’re the trainmaster, and you can do what you want as boss, but, if it were me, I would stop the trains.” To whcih, I the trainmaster said, “OK, you convinced me, but it is probably nothing, and I am going to catch he!! for this.”

Really good thing too, as it turns out, the ribon rail had pulled apart near one of the crossings. Apparently, there was not enough ballast under it, which caused it to pull appart.

Questions:

(1) This is a fairly well maintained line, with 60 mph freights and what seems like ample ballast. If lack of ballast can pull apart a weld on a heavy duty rail on this line, shouldn’t it be happening all over the country on less maintained lines? This is especially true, when it is considered that there aren’t a lot of heavy coal trains on this line.

(2) How is it that the last train to cross this rail did not derail? I would think a rail pulled appart would almost certainly derail a trian–especially as fast as they tend to move trains on this line. Surely a train going over the weld is what casued it to split.

(3) There are about 5 crossings in town spaced out in a little under a mile, how would this make all of the corssings go off?

(4) Would this cause a red light on the line.

(5)

3

Any number of things can cause broken rail…bad weld, sudden change in temperature, a car with high impact forces (flat spots, built up tread).

Just because the rail broke doesn’t mean the train will derail, particularly, if the speed is slow, or that train broke the weld.

The crossing probably triggered, because the broken rail dropped the track circuit for the crossings. The crossings were fooling into thinking a train was coming. It would also drop the signals to there most restrictive setting.

They discussed it, because there are also a number of reasons a track circuit can go down…broken bond wires, excessive moisture in the ballast, tampering.

I’m sure MC or Mr. Hadid can enlighten us some more.

Nick

4

There are a lot of this that you might consider “poorly” maintained, that would have no effect on causing the rails to pull apart. Most likely it was not “lack” of ballast, but rather disturbed ballast or poorly tamped ballast that caused the break. The forces created by temperature changes in the rail are constrained by secure fasteners and ties well embedded in the ballast.

[quote]

(2) How is it that the last train to cross this r

5

While the crossing signals and track circuits are separate a broken or pulled apart rail had better cause the signals for the trains to display stop or the FRA will not be very happy.

It is not always possible to send a signal maintainer out to check the signals immediately account of the limited number of maintainers and their hours of service requirements. Malfunctioning crossing signals have a priority but the sad fact is there are not enough maintainers employed by the railroads now and they are mostly stretched to the limit by their normal duties and call outs to take care of problems.

6

I have a cabride video where the dispatcher asks the crew of the train to check for a possible broken rail at a certain spot which was reported by another train when they came through. All they do is slow down to 10 mpoh over the spot and listen, but don’t notice anything so they report nothing found and go on.

7

If the siganl is displaying red, a train must travel at restricted speed passed that signal to the next signal, one of the parts of restricted speed would be to look out for broken rail. Also since the dispatcher knows the crossings are malfunctioning the crew would recieve notice of this and would have to protect the crossings per the rules, depending on the malfunction depends on the set of rules, so the train would be at a slow speed and watching out for anything unusual. As far as a field day with a lawyer, well if the traincrew the dispatcher and trainmaster followed the rules i dont see why you would have a case, i just think the lawyers should stay out of it.

BTW why do they bury lawyers 8 feet under, because deep down they are really nice people!

sorry I just hate when someone wants to jump to the conclusion that railroaders and railroad managers are idiots and would intentionally put a towns population in harms way, you may think we are dumb but for the most part 99% of us are professional and follow the rules. Besides our families live in these same communities.

8

Normal progression from good track to broken rail when viewed by the Dispatcher.

  1. Signal lined for train through track segment.

  2. Train operates through track segment at normal speeds

  3. Train exits into the next track segment.

  4. Track circuit on Dispatcher’s model board stays on after train has departed the segment.

  5. Signal Department and Roadway are notified of the existance of a track circuit staying on.

  6. Signal mantiner or Track inspector (or both) find broken rail and make determination if traffic can pass over it until the necessary men and materials can be assembled for a permant repair.

  7. Prior to the arrival of either the maintainer or track inspector, traffic will continue to move over the affected segment in accordance with the Rules at restricted speed.

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Sometimes the line becomes a bit tortuos on cold nights, like we see here in this picture taken by a friend of mine that works at FCA rwy. We call it the “hook”.

Pedro

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[(-D]The short line gravel hauling railroad in our city has some tracks that remind me of Pedro’s picture.

11

Grade-crossing signals: There’s many different ways that adjacent grade-crossing signals can be linked or not linked. If the grade-crossing signals are daxed together (downstream adjacent crossing), but are not equipped with grade-crossing predictors (GCP), then when one activates, the grade-crossing signals it is daxed to activate as well. If each crossing has a GCP and the GCP in the one that has a broken rail in its circuit shows no relative motion, then the daxed crossings will not activate (or may activate and then when the first GCP shows no relative motion, they will deactivate). If the break occurs in the island circuit then the gates are coming down on that crossing, period.

In other words there is no single rule of thumb.

Wayside signals: A broken rail may not shunt the track circuit unless it’s a clean pull-apart. In my experience, these days, most rails that are “found” by a train also end up derailing the train. It seems more common that way than to have one left behind a train. Our rule has always been that anytime a train leaves a track light behind it, stop all movements over that block and call the roadmaster and signal maintainer. This is why it is so crucial to run detector cars on a regular basis.

S. Hadid

12

Having re-read the initial scenario…and Gabe through no fault of your own you are missing some information…

Did the Dispatcher show a track circuit down and did he indicate this to the Trainmaster? If there was a track circuit down all the wayside signal would drop to their most restrictive aspect.

Was the only indication of trouble the crossing gates? Crossing gates can and do malfunction, as well as being subject to vandalism. To me, having all 5 gates down would definitely be an indication of bigger problem.

However, absent a clear sign of broken rail…there is no reason to stop traffic. The real reason the DS wanted to stop traffic was probably to avoid the hassle of having everyone stop and flag all five crossings.

Also, there are places where track circuits will flicker on and off, especially in areas of high water.

Nick

13

Guys you are missing a few things:

(1) If the crossing gates are down, why would they flag the crossings? I could see restrictive speeds, but it seems kind of silly to say universally-recognized arm bars with bells and blinking lights will not cause a car to exercise caution . . . but oh, a waving guy in an orange vest . . .

(2) The dispatcher clearly thought there was a safety problem. I will be the first to admit I have less knowledge than most on here. But, if I am standing near a track and see a broken rail with a train coming, the first thing through my mind will be “feet don’t fail me now.”

(3) Was there necessarily a red light for restricted speed? What if the rail was broken but still touching?

(4) I am sorry, but I don’t care what the technical rules are. If there is injury, death, and or/destruction of property after a railroad was told there might be a problem by local law enforcement and the dispatcher and trains proceed anyway, any two-bit lawyer could sell that to a jury with punitive damages to boot. I am telling you, if a major derailment happened on those facts, that would be an absolute feeding frenzy of litigation. Those are the kind of facts some lawyers dream about.

(5) Youngengineer, deep down–even 8 feet–I am still a money-grubing jerk.

Gabe

14

After seeing a video a while back of a short section of rail that was completely disconnected from the ties (and was in fact flopping around with the passage of each wheelset), I would not doubt for a moment that a reasonably well spiked/clipped section of track with a broken weld might survive for a fair period of time. I have heard the track foremen in this area on the scanner after discovering such problems during their regular inspections. They take the track out of service, the track department comes out and does their thing, and life goes on…

I have my doubts on that…

15

Gabe,

Second hand testimony?

Question 1: Where did the rail break?

Was the break at the weld proper, before or after the weld?

I doubt the weld itself failed, the material used in the process is harder than the steel rail, and from what I have seen, rarely fails.

The rail can and does break just before or after the weld from fatigue or other causes.

As to why the rail broke, with no way to test the rail itself, or see what conditions are at the break, we would all be guessing.

Question 2: Not necessary, I have switched over a broken rail for a few minutes before I noticed the break…this stuff is pretty tough, and as long as it stays in gauge, odds are any train running over the break will only notice a bump when the wheels hit the end of the facing broken rail.

I found the break in our switching lead with my ears.

I kept hearing a click in a location where the sound had not been before, went to investigate, and found a clean through fatigue break.

If, as you say, the area is well maintained, then the ties will do their job and hold the gauge, so the last train over the break might have caused the break, or might just have compounded an existing break, but it wouldn’t necessarily derail.

3: Mr Hadid and other have answered that quite thoroughly…and as was pointed out, rail circuits do goofy things.

4: If it broke the circuit, and depending on the type of signaling, yes.

Signal systems are designed for failsafe operations, when the system fails, it will show the most restrictive aspect to the train crews.

This does not mean the dispatcher will see anything on their board or monitor, but a crew will radio in telling them they are looking at a red board where there should not be one, so the dispatcher will know there is a problem quite soon on a busy line.

5: Pretty sure the trainmaster did decide to send someone to check, (this would be the normal proto

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Thanks Ed and Larry, that means more to me than you might think. Most of the time I don’t care when people think I am a jerk just because of my occupation, but there are times when it anoys me simply because it demonstrates the failure of our education system to explain why the world works the way it does.

And Ed, once, I was a contender . . . .

Gabe

17

Gabe I owe you an apology, i reread your first post and I understand what you are saying. I have always read many of your posts on here and you do seem to be an upstanding guy. The comment was out of frustration not meant as personal attack on you. I have known and still know many lawyers and I am friends with a few. I do understand how the law works, I just think sometimes our first thought is how much money can I make, not wether this is the right course of action. The few have ruined what is an honorable pursuit.

The reason for flagging the crossings is due to the fact that there is a known defect of the crossing gates and the defect is unknown. The train could arrive at that location and all of a sudden the gates dont work at all, or frustrated motorists could be running the gates because no train has come for awhile, many different scenarios as to what may be happening.

18

Appology accepted, thanks for the crossing explanation, and, as I stated above, my frustration is directed at societal attitudes rather than you.

Don’t get me wrong, I understand that “principle” seldom trumps “principal” in the eyes of a lawyer. But, try to remember, railroads–and just about any business that I have ever dealt with–do not wake up in the morning and say, “how can I make the world a better place.” No, they wake up and say, “what is the most efficient, legal way I can make money.”

For some reason, society largely accepts a railroad with this behavior, but does not accept it from a lawyer.

If NS is doing something we disaprove of, it is because we as a nation have passed laws that allow as much or are not enforcing the laws that would otherwise prevent such behavior. Lawyers are no different.

As FM often demonstrates, not all of us like the way railroads choose to go about their business; but, as a re

19

Well Gabe,

If you turned away from the easy bucks to do the right thing and follow your conscience, then you fall into that category of men we don’t often see any more, those known as Gentleman.

Having kids can do that to you!

Keep posting the interesting questions; these are the ones that keep us coming back.

By the way, how is the short version?

20

How is a broken section of ribon rail fixed?

Do they cut out the section completely and insert a new rail. Or do they just put a joint at the break? I remember in Trains articles where the cold would pull a rail apart, they would use an oil rope to expand the rail, and then affix a joint.

It seems that this might not be applicable in other situations tough.

Thanks,

Gabe