Build &Maintain 4,000 miles of railroad

Trains Magazine General Discussion
1

I watched Prez. Obama speaking in Milwaukee this Labor Day, and there were a couple of eye opening remarks.

A.) The government over the next years is going to repair and maintain 150,000 miles of Highways.

B.) The Government was going to lay and maintain 4,000 miles of new railroads.

C.) Various Airport enhancement projects.

This is part of the move to pump an additional $50 billion dollars into the Nations infrastructure.

First of all, I am trying to keep my own personal politics out of this discussion and hopefully others will belay the various methods of character assisination, and look at this in a positive light.

I have not seen the printed version of this speech so I am going on what I heard spoken. If I am in error I welcome corrections and amplifications.

That said: 4,000 miles of railroad is a lot of infrastructure. ( my guess it is somewhere near the figure of lines rationalized in the last 40 years (give or take)

A.)Is the unsoken inferrance, HSR lines?

B.) Relaying part of the National railnet that has been ‘rationalized’ since the 1960’s?

C.) Enhancements to the current National railnet ;(double tracking? projects like CREATE in Chicago?) (Colton overpass in California).

Beefing up maintenance activities on the National Railnet?

Anyone have any specific info on any of the Rail Aspects, I am hopefull it is not political rhetoric.

Just found this link and will post part of the quote from the NYT linked article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/07/us/politics/07obama.html?_r=1&

2

I sure hope the government is up to the task. The infrastructure of the US is already in such bad shape that something must be done, either now before it crumbles completely, or later after a few more disasters have happened (think Minneapolis bridge, etc).

I frequently wonder (as I bounce out of yet another pothole in the road) how the US got the interstate system built., how we got to the moon a few times, or built the Hoover dam, etc. And then I think of Japan, Germany, and France and their networks of snazzy high-speed railroads.

3

The Minneapolis bridge collapsed because of a design flaw in the gusset plates. It was not due to “our crumbling infrastructure.”

I wonder if we can get the details of this 4000 miles of new railroad.

4

Sam says, “That said: 4,000 miles of railroad is a lot of infrastructure. ( my guess it is somewhere near the figure of lines rationalized in the last 40 years (give or take)”

I think that in 40 years, that’s about how many route miles the C&NW shed by itself, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Conrail dropped that many miles in one day, when it was created.

There have been maps floating around (I’m sure I’ve seen them in both Railway Age and Trains) that show which railroads will not be able to handle the capacity needed by them in the next few decades. I wouldn’t be surprised if the 4000 miles would address some of these anticipated deficiencies. I can’t see new routes being surveyed, permitted, and built in the six-year timeframe.

The “and maintain” portion of the statement bothers me, if this is what’s happening. How would it be maintained independently of existing trackage? If this is not what’s happening, and the railroad is to be made on 4000 miles of new right-of-way, who will operate it?

5

Sam says, “That said: 4,000 miles of railroad is a lot of infrastructure. ( my guess it is somewhere near the figure of lines rationalized in the last 40 years (give or take)”

I think that in 40 years, that’s about how many route miles the C&NW shed by itself, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Conrail dropped that many miles in one day, when it was created.

There have been maps floating around (I’m sure I’ve seen them in both Railway Age and Trains) that show which railroads will not be able to handle the capacity needed by them in the next few decades. I wouldn’t be surprised if the 4000 miles would address some of these anticipated deficiencies. I can’t see new routes being surveyed, permitted, and built in the six-year timeframe.

The “and maintain” portion of the statement bothers me, if this is what’s happening. How would it be maintained independently of existing trackage? If this is not what’s happening, and the railroad is to be made on 4000 miles of new right-of-way, who will operate it?

6

…I believe the President was in some way saying some of this money for the 4,000 mi. of RR, etc…in fact, would be towards HSR.

We do need to be thinking of our countries infrastructure…all of it, and personally, I sure hope we soon begin to.

Item: I’m trying to keep politics out of any comments on this thread as well.

7

Quentin, and others;

I had no idea of the reductions made in the National Railnet when I made that statement, I was pretty sure the Rationalizations were well in excess of the 4,000 miles mentioned MILW and C&NW would come close by themselves to that, I believe.

In this political sason ( of the looming Miderm elections) I would sure like to have some more details on specifics, Hopefully, Secy Lahood will supply some, and soon! My fervent hope is that it is much more than political rhetoric. We’ll just have to wait and see how the details shake out in days to come.

8

Today’s Pogressive Railroading e-newsletter suggests that the 4,000 miles of railroad infrastructure improvements will go to “public transportation projects,” namely subway and elevated systems, commuter rail, high-speed rail, and perhaps even streetcars “light-rail.” Rail freight operations were not alluded to.###

9

When is the last time you heard somebody announce the construction of 4,000 miles of railroad without mentioning where it would run?

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6853DB20100906

The above article says they can get the money by closing tax loopholes on oil companies, which is nice sounding rhetoric for raising our taxes. It makes it sound like oil companies will have to pay for it, and we all hate oil companies, so no problem. It makes it sound like there is an ongoing gift to the oil companies, and if we just take it away from them, it will be free money. But the fact is that if you confiscate $50-billion from the oil companies, it will come right out of our pockets. If it were free money just lying there for the taking, why have we not already taken it?

10

I’ll bet he means “4000 mile of railroad (track)”. That would include all the new ROW in CA and FL (if they can ever get their match together…) and all the second, third, and passing sidings needed for new corridors along existing ROW. But who knows? Politicians don’t generally speak RR…

11

When I posted this after the speech in Milwaukee, I was hoping to see some concrete directions for this project to start.

After a couple of days, all I have been able to find is simply re-hashes of the original rhetoric; republished with seemingly inane additional commentary, and very little amplification on the originally stated goals.

4,000 miles is quite a bit of "New Construction’ as Carl pointed out. Roughly, what comprised the original C&NW; Johnny pointed out the miles in Florida and California with some passing sidings thrown in come close.

It is beginning to seem as if we have been given another dose of Grandiose Political rhetoric designed to make the first bloom of thought, a statement to overwhelm the individuals’ with sheer numbers that are hard to wrap ones mind around when first mentioned.[X-)]

We keep getting HSR thrown at us as the new ‘gold standard’ of passenger rail. With the Northeast Corridor being what we will see as large population centers are connected across the country. HSR does not happen overnight and requires much groundwork and lots of weeping and gnashing of teeth and political will. It will not happen here even though we wish it would.

[soapbox] Twenty or thirty years is a political life-span; in this day of twenty- four/seven/three sixty-five and two or three minute sound bites in the Media coverage. Projects seem to move with glacial speeds and the public tires quickly as information moves at time warping speed in comparison and political promises last about as long as a snow flake in …

Hopefully, we will get some concrete and workable information out of Washington with directions and what we will be expecting.[banghead][banghead]

12

This is political bull from a perpetual campaigner. Someone will have to write a bill. i am unaware that this step has been taken. The bill will specify what funds will really be spent on what projects. Bill has to get through both houses of Congress. There is an election coming up and all of the house and a third of the senate are up for reelection. They are focused on keeping their plush jobs, nothing else. With luck this will be beneath the surface of the waves by the midterms and after the midterms the Republicans will be able to reign in the craziness of the last two years.

Mac

13

As we rush headlong towards HSR–seemingly to keep up with those enlightened Europeans who are always more progressive than we are here in the US–I wonder if anyone has done anything as simple as a needs assessment or an ROI analysis? We do endless environmental impact studies, but do we know that anyone in the general public is really interested in HSR or will use it even if they “like” the idea?

A second question: what about the impact of HSR on our airlines? Let’s suppose that HSR does, in fact, siphon off passengers that would have gone by air. So then what happens to the jobs that are lost in the process? What are the personal and economic costs? Anyone have an answer?

John Timm

14

I saw mention of one of the projects going to be covered under the Presidents new program. The project was to fix the BNSF line near Devils Lake, ND. The project will raise the BNSF line high enough so that it will not be flooded as the lake rises to the point where it will create a natural spillway into the Sheyenne River. Canada does not want the US to create a spillway and they will use our courts to block it, however there is nothing they can do if the natural rise of the lake is what creates the spillway. I expect that some of the CREATE projects will be funded under this new program also.

15

Can you/will you please provide a source for the information about the Devils Lake project?

Please see Fred Frailey’s column in August 2010 Trains. This would be an incredible waste of economic resources at a time when we have none to waste.

If what you say is true, it needs to be stopped. It’s bad enough that they want to divert resources from the energy sector, and basically impose an increased fuel tax on everybody from commuters to farmers during a bad recession, but totally wasting the money on projects like this is beyond comprehension. No rational, thinking human being would propose this.

16

The message was in one of the yahoogroups that I am a member of. The project rates the highest for the North Dakota delegation. If they let the BNSF go it is likely to be permanently gone, and the adjacent highway would go also (any bets the highway would be rebuilt). It would make less sense to save the highway without raising the railroad line. The ND delegation is concerned that it is the only E-W line in the northern half of the state, closure would certainly result in loss of Amtrak service to Grand Forks and much more circuity for PNW grain from Northeastern North Dakota.

17

According to Frailey grain movements won’'t be affected by loss of the line. In fact, it’s closure would have no effect on any freight movements because the BNSF has ceased using the part of the line that will be flooded.

The only trains over the line are the two Amtrak trains each day.

18

One has to wonder where this Devil’s Lake Project was when the first Stimulus was for ‘Shovel Ready’ infrastructure investment when that was/is being parceled out.

I tend to see in Mac’s post and John Timm’s as well a rising level of frustrated skepticism as the Washington Politician seem to be much more interested in various enviromental impacts than the impacts on our countries financial strengths.

The entire country seems to be innoculated with a skepticism born of their frustration of the apparent current governmental desires to attempt to cure problems with money, pumped out in volumns similar to water from a fire hose onto a fire. It is a play on the old, ‘if a little is effective, a whole lot will overwhelm.’

There have been a number of photos published from time to time of the Devil’s Lake line with its water seemingly up close to the ballast line of the roadbed. It is a beautiful scenic area. No one has said if this is a naturally occcuring lake, or if it is an empoundment enhanced by the ROW of the railroad? If it is a natural lake, I would expect that there would be a natural outfall for the waters. Does anyone have any ideas or information on it. Sounds lie the local delegation in ND wants the rail line in place and the se

19

I’m wondering why they want to spend money there now, in a state with an unemployment rate of only 3.6%

20

Dale:

Good question! You can bet somewhere around (currentl) 59 % of the American population is probably right there with you.