This might be a stupid question but exactly how did the predescessor roads to BN interact? Specifically, GN, CB&Q and NP all came together in Minneapolis. How was through traffic in both directions handled? Would northbound trains have CB&Q engines until Minneapolis where they would switch to NP or GN engines for the rest of the trip and vice versa in the other direction or did the roads have reciprocal trackage rights so that a GN train would go all the way to Chicago? If it was a mix of both whcih trains switched engines and which did not? Any info would be helpful since I am modeling these roads in the Minneapolis area. Thanks.
Actually they would have each traveled on their own lines–there would certainly be interchange of cars, but each road had their own separate mainline. I do know that the “Empire Builder” went all the way from Chicago to Portland as a unit.
First off The GN, The NP, the CB&Q, and the SP&S were all owned by the same people. So there were a tremendouse amount of co-operation between all 4 railroads. As far as the Empire Builder and the North Coast Limited going all the way from Chicago to the West coast. The Q would haul it between Chicago & Minneapolis, Generally behind pairs of E-Units. or Passenger F-3s As the passenger services declined, the Q combined the Builder, North Coast, and the Afternoon Zypher into one train between Minneapolis and Chicago.
A far as freight services go. I assume that the change over was fairly straight foward. However as far as changing cars around in the Minneapolis area, further research would be in order.
Actually it was even more than just the same people. The GN and NP purchased the CB&Q in umm… 1910 or so. The SP&S was also owned by the GN, I think from the very start.
It is my understanding that most of the time freight was interchanged between the roads. That is, the train terminated in Minneapolis was re-classified and then left Minneapolis as a different train on the new road. As others have already mentioned the Builder and NCL were run as a single train all the way through just switching power and crews. I am certain other trains also ran as units. On a video of the trains of Chicago I seem to remember seeing some GN units on a freighter, as the Twin Cities Zephyr passed by. Of course that could have just been leased power too. So you see I am speculating.
The historical societies would be the best place to find the level of detailed information you are looking for:
Great Northern http://www.gnrhs.org/
Northern Pacific http://www.nprha.org/
The SP&S was jointly owned/constructed by the GN & NP. They also purchased the CB&Q to ensure their access to Chicago. The three roads tried to merge in 1910(?), but the ICC would have required the divestiture of the CB&Q, the GN & NP, withdrew the merger and operated the CB&Q as a seperate entity. Otherwise, BN would have happened in 1910 instead of 1970.
Nick
In the case of the Empire Builder there was a slight change in consist in St. Paul (not Minneapolis). I believe the diner, bagg/RPO, and possibly “Ranch” car wer left in ST Paul for reprovisioning and the remainder of the train was forwarded to Chicago on the Q. The RRs were owned by either the same people or each other but they still operated as independent entities. Here in God’s country for example the tne NP set out frieght for interchange w/ the SP&S at a siding called Scribner about 5 miles from Spokane rather than 150 miles west (south geographically) at Pasco where both RRs shared the same yard. The SP&S of course interchanged NP traffic at Pasco. The SP&S yarded its trains at the GN’s Spokane yard at Hillyard so every day they would send a Challenger out to Scribner to collect the traffic from the NP. Since there was no turning facility at Scribner the trip was made one way w/ the tender first!
Than why did Burlington Northern change its name to BNSF with the Sante Fe merger and change its paint scheme once again?
I think they should of kept the cascade green and and dropped the Sante Fe and leave it as it was.
If UP can do it why not BN?
Mark
Because UP devoures, and BNSF was a more or less merger of equals.
Nick
Exactly–that, and the fact that AT&SF is a very marketable name in the Southwest, and they wanted to retain some of it to keep that cachet (and why you still see stuff painted in Warbonnet in that neck of the woods.)
I’ll have to ask but generally I think the RPO car ran all the way through, at least according to the spiel we give people in the former GN RPO we have at the railroad museum–but those spiels have been known to be wrong…
I worked for the CB&Q in 1968-1969. The passenger trains were interchanged at St Paul as described. Road freights varied, but basically the CB&Q freights out of Chicago were yarded at Dayton’s Bluff Yard(just south of St Paul, and CB&Q ‘transfers’ moved the cars to the GN and NP(and other railroads). The ‘hot’ time freights were #97 & #82. #97 was ‘pre-blocked’ and arrived in the ‘Bluff’ with the GN section and an empty caboose seperating it from the NP section. A transfer crew would get on the train as arrived, and would break the ‘joint’ behind that mid-train caboose. Within 10 minutes the road power and the GN section were making their way west to Union Yard(GN). A 3 unit set of NW2’s would couple on to the NP section and head up the NP ‘East Side’ line(or ‘B’ line as it was formally called) to Mpls. Other freight trains were switched out at Dayton’s Bluff and transfers were made up to deliver the cars.
After the merger, Dayton’s Bluff has been used as a ‘500’ mile inspection yard, and auto unloading area. The roundhouse is long gone, and most road freights now by-pass the yard and continue west 15 miles to Northtown Yard(ex NP). Intermodal trains use the ex-GN line to access ‘Midway’ Yard. West of the Twin Cites, most road freights use the ex-NP line via St Cload & Staples(the ‘Preferred Route’). The ex-GN ‘Willmar’ line sees mainly coal trains and Sioux City bound traffic. Note that Amtrak’s version of the Empire Builder uses the the ex-NP line west of the Twin Cities and regains ex-GN trackage at Fargo.
Jim Bernier
Then again, there’s the statement by a former SP employee regarding the UP/SP “merger”, with tongue firmly in cheek: “It was too a merger of equals…the company used their first name and our last name!”
Merger of equals? WE loaned the Sani FLu***he money to buy us! Typical BN fashion. Now we have to deal with their board of directors saying Intermodal only, and trying to copy Unka Pete with DP consists!
But anyhow I would love to see stuff still in green! We answer the phone at our yd office BN still so hey we bleed green here.