Been sitting back for quite a few years considering if I should buy some brass steam loco’s, but have a problem. Don’t know that much about the different manufactures and what not to buy, and where not to buy it.
Been looking around on Ebay for months now and have had allot of watches on several different models just to see how high they would go. I have one 2-8-2 in brass, no box paper work or anything on it. Aquired it a few years back for $50 at a train show, it did not run very good and got a new motor and gear installed, which made it run 100% better.
I know there are some of the forum members out there who have some brass loco’s and love them and know allot more about them than I do. I have done allot of motor and gear work on several different models over the years, but am still in the dark about what to buy, and what not to buy.
Any input would help me with making decisions on my purchases of brass. Am looking for a 2 or 3 truck Shay, 4-6-2, 0-6-0, and Berk.
Need some guide lines and estimated cost so I know what I am getting into. Thanks guys!
Vintage brass was PFM (United) and Balboa. I have some PFM and they are well made. Did you try a search on the net? I THINK there is a buyers guide.
Take Care
George P.
Most Brass made ~1965- 1975 was made in Japan and generally good quality although not to the detail of today’s product. Before 1965 the quality of castings was poor to fair but running qualities were OK. Most if not all motors were open frame and could be visible in the cab. Only larger locos had back head detail. Around 1975 Korean products came on the scene and were not as well made as the Japanese engines. Solder joints were poorly made with excess solder. Brass colored paint was applied to cover these defects. In the early 80s can motors became common and running characterisics improved along with detail. Importers of quality engines include Max Gray, Balboa, Westside, PFM in the early days. Importers of questionable engines include Gem, Sunset, and Key although you can find acceptable models made by them. Few if any brass models are ready to run as compared with say a Kato or Athearn model. Expect to do some tweaking to the drive to get them to perform like the modern stuff. The 'bible" on brass is Brown’s Book of Brass Locomotives but I am not sure when the last printing was and prices will be out of date but it does list virtually every loco made before 1992.
If you’re buying to operate, and you’re not looking for a specific prototype, my recommendation is “buy die cast.” Every one of those wheel arrangements can be found in a good diecast model that will run as well as or better than brass.
The data in the Brown Book is good, but the pricing is several years out of date. The best way to price is probably comparatively. A lot of the bigger brass retailers - Caboose Hobbies, for example - sell models for people, so the seller sets the price. This leads to outliers but they’re usually detectable - Caboose has such a large stock that the ridiculously overpriced models are usually apparent. I would also check The Caboose’s website, although they don’t have pictures. I’ve bought a lot of brass from both of these retailers, and had good luck with them.
Ebay is a crap shoot - can be cheaper, although not necessarily, particularly for your rare items. I’ve had good luck there, but there are a lot of people who’ve complained about the difference between the advertisement and the product.
SPfan’s views on manufacturers are probably about right (although I’ve had very good experiences with the models Sunset imports). Are you looking for any particular prototypes?
I’m not being a smart-aleck, mind you, it’s a serious question…
Are you looking to collect them and put them on display? Are you planning to run them?
Do you want to buy painted or unpainted? If unpainted, will you paint them? if so, how much experience do you have painting non-brass locos already?
Are you looking for unique/specific locos that are only offered in brass? (doesn’t sound like this from your interest list)
What appeals to you about brass? The better level of detail? The greater ease of doing ‘metalwork’ on them yourself? The greater ability (along with the need) to mess with the drivetrain to get them running ‘just so’… Something else?
If an identical-to-your-choice, but non-brass, loco was available that ran better and had as much or more detail, would you buy that one?
All these things would impact the answer to your question… saying “tell me about buying brass” is sort of like saying “I want to build a layout”… It’s a little too generic to answer intelligently without more details, IMHO.
I have bought brass over the years because it was the only way you could get certain engines like a PRR M1a. I have found that for the most part that they are cantankerous beasts requiring as much maintenance as the real thing and plastic engines run much better. Maybe because they are designed for train sets where they better run or else. Even the cheapest Bachman steam engine requires less maintenance than a brass engine. That being said if the brass engine is the only game in town I buy.
Okay this is going to be long and probably boring… I have dealt with and can recommend the following brass dealers: Mitchell’s at www.mitchells.com, Don Black Brass Trains at www.donblacktrains.com, Dan’s Train Depot (aka Piermont Division) at www.danstraindepot.com or www.brasstrains.com (Piermont Divison). They all have extensive websites with photos,descriptions and prices. If you prefer ebay here’s some tips: Decide what you are willing to pay for that specific example and stick with your limit, don’t get into a bidding war over it as previously noted it will come up again and often in better shape and a lower price. Always buy the most complete locomotive you can find- as few missing pieces or damaged parts as possible the small parts can be impossible to find and will add up much faster than paying more for a locomotive in better condition.eg : Locomotive only, missing a tender might seem like a bargain compared to a complete loco but most engines usually had a specific style of tender or one that was specific to that railroad, do you want to try and find the proper tender for a model that could be up to 40 years old? As to which brands run better that is tough to say as you are looking at a very broad range of models made over a long period of time that might have changed hands several times before you became interested in it so who knows how well they were modified. If you can see it in person, running all the better. Always check out the ebay sellers feedback as to how much feedback they have, what kind of feedback (negative, positive,etc) usually a seller with a higher volume of feedback might be a bit safer even with a few negatives because they are more likely to suffer for their poor conduct compared to a seller with a lower feedback count. Paypal is ebays money transfer service that has access to your checking account once you sign up it’s fast and convenient way to pay provede the seller is willing to take paypal. If you aren’t comfortable with the idea of paypal then go with a cashier’s o
I have a brass Shay and a Sierra. The Shay was a gift of great importance and the Sierra in brass is the only way to get it. I love them both, and run them, but that is a chore. I just saw the Spectrum Shay, and it looked as good and ran much better. You pay a lot for the brass, make sure you really want it. The only reason to get brass these days is if it is the only model availble, and they are a beast to make DCC.
Not a lot to add. You are way ahead of the game in that you have experience with re-gearing / re-motoring and are prepared to tackle it.
For a shay I would recommend the Spectrum model over any brass one UNLESS you just want to own brass (something I would fully understand) in which case Max Gray and PSC are usually good choices.
For the 4-6-2, my first thought is a Powerhouse model - diecast boiler with brass tender and some brass details. For genuine brass, United, Sunset and NWSL ones are often available at reaonsable prices; the United and NWSL will need re-gearing and re-motoring.
For the 0-6-0, Oriental did a nice one in the 80s at a reasonable price but its very rare in the used-brass market. There is a United B&O (I think, maybe USRA?) one that I see regularly at a reasonable price, but will need re=powering. THere are also a couple of more costly options made more recently.
I don’t think many Berkshires have ever been done in brass and they are therefore likely to be on the expensive side.
Others have offered good advice on dealers and on general points. In terms of reputable dealers I would add the caboose in Wolcott, CT. My only comment is that the prices in the Brown BOok are indeed out of date - they are mostly well above market prices today. Glaab’s pricing related to what a reputable dealer would expect to list a model for, prior to E-Bay - an institution which has (IMO) significantly driven brass prices down for many models (UP for an elite few extra-rare ones).
If you want it, get it, it’s your money. If you take decent care of it you should not lose any money.
I used to have quite a few brass steamers, but I always bought them to run as opposed to just collecting them, and I wanted prototypes that were not available any other way. As nice running plastic or cast models became available I sold them off on eBay, and now have only 2 left.
I did not find brand name to be a good indicator of running qualities, as received. I did have a couple of PFM Crown I believe that were junk, until I adjusted everything quite a bit, but then they ran nicely. I never owened any bad Sunset or Key. As noted elsewhere, most of it did need some tuning.
As to value, just keep watching. Everything is worth what someone will pay.
It can be a ‘crap-shoot’ just like anything else. I have a large collection of brass locos, all of which I run. I’ve re-motored some of the very early ones (Akane, PFM) and done quite a bit of tweaking on others. As was mentioned earlier on this thread, the early Japanese brass are by and large very sturdy, and well-made, if not as detailed as the newer imports. I’ve had good luck with just about all of the brands I own (PFM, Akane, Balboa, Westside, Sunset, Key, LMB) , though some of them are just intrinsically noisy and need quite a bit of tweaking to run quiet. I’m not in DCC, so I don’t know how easily they convert–but I’ve heard my share of nightmare stories about conversion. Generally I buy Brass for specific prototypes–there’s hardly a Rio Grande standard-gauge steamer on the market in plastic–
However, as a brass owner and collector for the last 40 years, let me say that you’ll spend more time ‘tweaking’ them than you will the newer plastic steamers. But that being said, most of the new plastic steamers haven’t been on the market long enough to comment on their longevity. And as one who has had to disassemble a Spectrum steamer to add weight and balance, I can tell you right now that a brass steamer is MUCH easier to get into and work on!
In short, brass is fine, but a little temperamental. But I sure don’t plan on getting rid of any of mine soon, if at all.
Tom [:P]
Sorry I did not get back to you guys till late, left the post this morning and left for the day then. I cannot give you a real good reason for getting in to it. I have a few cars and some parts tenders that I have aquired over the years. The 2-8-2 I have does spend time running on my layout, it does run pretty good too after the rework of the gears and motor. Most of you guys know me well enough to see that I am a gear head, willing to fix it or try everything in my power to fix it, that me though.
I am getting rid of allot of items and parts I have wich is mostly HO scale, tired of the box after box of old parts and loco’s and cars sitting around. I know brass has allot of pro’s and cons from what everyone is telling me. I’m looking for regular runners that are painted if possible, and I just want to stick to steam. I about bought a Shay on Ebay a few eeks ago, but only put one bid and and watched it go for a small fortune then. I buy and sell all the time on Ebay and do have the Paypal, makes things much easier.
I’m just interested in a few brass loco’s just to own, not really interested in getting a whole fleet, think the wife might frown on that. I did an inventory of all my loco’s I have tonite that are sitting on shelves and that are sitting in there boxes still, 312 including the one brass that I have, what am I doing?
I’m really interested in brass as finding something special that I want for keepsake and a regular runner, as far a working on them, well I know I can do that part of it. Think I am going to do some research and do some checking around like some of the web site you guys left.
I thank you guys for telling me your thoughts, any other people that want to ad your 2 cents is welcome. Thanks again guys for the thoughts!!!
