I have a pretty good idea on how to do it but a few questions.
Frist I have two main lines that are continuous loops, one is inside of each other. I have feeders around ever 10 feet and line 1 and 2 are joined by 2 to 3 turn outs.
What I know and have done.
I know I will need to added a nother set of power strips (blocks so 1 + wire feed all the + rails) so line 1 and 2 have separate power. Easy to do, will take about a hour max.
All the turn outs the connect line 1 and 2 have rubber joiners. So power is not shared between the 2 thottles.
Now for the first question, when I want the train that is on line 1 cross over to line 2 and being all wheel pick up will the 2 driffrent thottle’s cause a problem? Would having matching thottles help?
Second, main goal is to have two driffrent trains running in opposed drection, but add in changing from line 1 and 2 there is a problem right!
I have 1 Atlas selector #215 and #220’s. Will the selectors I have let me do what I want?
Main question is the first one.
Latter when I am more advaced is when the second question needs to be answered. All so make all the answer’s very simple like talking to a child. In MRR years I am 6![:)] First train was bought in Feb this year.
Thanks for the answers to come and idot proof drawings would help.
In this case, the obvious answer is not a good one for the very reasons you point out. When a metal wheel or locomotive bridges the gap at the insulated (rubber) rail joiners, both power packs are linked to each other, as well as the locomotive. If the power packs are set to opposite directions, they will short circuit each other. If they are set to the same direction, a “fault” current will flow between the 2 power packs that is proportional to the difference in the voltage settings. This fault current, depending on the capacity of the power packs, and the contact of the metal wheel, can cause problems.
The correct answer is what is called “cab control” or “block control” and will use your Atlas Selectors. Atlas has a book called Complete Atlas Wiring Book available from their web site (http://www.atlasrr.com/books.htm) that describes, in detail and with nice diagrams, what I am trying to say. The book shows Atlas wiring components. You do not have to use Atlas components, but they are easy to understand, although somewhat awkward in actual operation.
The theory goes something like this:
You want to set up electrically separate “blocks” of track, usually as long as your normal longest train. Insulated rail joiners are put in one rail at each block boundary. You must use the same rail for setting the block boundary throughout; the other rail becomes the “common” rail. You then select (with the Selector) which power pack will control which block of track. To allow trains to switch loops, and keep moving, each loop needs at least 4 blocks. Each block is wired to one of the switches on the Selector. One power pack is wired to the A terminal on the Selector, and the other is wired to B terminal on the Selector.
In operation, block switches for the train that is going to be controlled by power pack A are put in the
Funny we mention this discussion. My mainline is a dual mainline but there is a spot where they cross over so two times around to cover the entire route and hit both tracks. In addition I am running blocks where 1/2 is powered frrom one DCC booster and the other half from another DCC booster. The idea was that if I ever got more than 5A worth of trains running on the dual mainline I would have been out of power for the entire mainline. The next option would have been upgrades to 8A boosters or cutting track gaps. With DCC the only thing I need to do is ensure the boosters are wired in the same polarity to both mainline blocks. I realize this is a DC discussion but it helps illustrate another advantage of DCC. Believe me, until I bought mine last year, I didn’t see all of the advantages. The good news for Cuda Ken is that he will already have the blocks in place so that if he ever upgrades to DCC, he will have the flexibility to run one or more boosters.
No arguments from me regarding DCC. Flipping Selectors or toggles to keep 2 trains operational on a small to mid-size layout is not my idea of operation. But, in my case, there’s usually only me and there’s no continous run so DCC isn’t worth the expense yet.
Some even better reasons for doing dual cab control in DC first is 1) it teaches you the basics of model railroad wiring (whether you wanted to learn it or not!); and 2) you can easily operate DC or DCC during the transition period by subsituting the DCC system for one of the power packs.
And not just short circuit but at that point they would be in series with one another doubling the voltage.
Up to and including frying both the power supplies.
Fred gave a good description, but I don’t know if it was the requested 6-grade level. Let me try.
What you need to do is put an electrical switch between the track and the two power supplies so that either one or the other power supplies are sending power to the track. There will need to be one electrical switch for each block (in your case it sound like you only have two blocks - one for each loop). This can be done with a common rail as fwright describes or it can be done by using double-pole-double-toggle (DPDT) switches for routing the power, and running two wires to each block.
To move a train between the two blocks, one would make certain the switches for those two tracks are set to the same power supply.
I’m planning to break up the “three loops” of my eventually to be built layout into several blocks each for DC operation. Each full loop will be isolated on the common side from the others so when I do go to DCC each can be easily connected to individual boosters. With all the wiring converging at one point and this not being a very long mainline, this will make the conversion so simple, I may have to do it blindfolded just to have a challenge. The Atlas wiring book taught me more about electricity when I was a kid than I learned managing the RadioShaft.
After I posted this question I got to run some of my trains on K-10’s great layout. My line was around 560 feet and had 9 MRC 9500 thottles.
I bought a little better thottle for my board MRC 260 with 20 VA, plus Darrel is letting me use one of his MRC 2500 at 16 VA. So till Darrel wants is 2500 back I have 2 decent thottles I could run. So I was thinking about this question again then I remember the night I ran at K-10 Trains.
Now, they where all matched 9500’s but power settings where not the same around my main line. I did not throw any switchs as the train went from one block to the next, some long level sections I had the thottle sat to say 40%, then when heading into a turn thottle was at 25%.
I just got back from K-10 train and spoke to Ken the owner and bulider of the board. He said I did not need any switches to run 2 thottles. All I need is two sets of power feeds 1 for each main line. They can all so cross over from one thottle to the next with no ill effect to the motor. I all so told Ken that they will not be matched thottle, once again I was told no problem. I hate the fact I asked this “Ken, are you sure there would be no problems”, he just smiled and said “Ken it happen 9 times every time the train goes around the board”!
He all so reminded me of the fact I was running the Blue Main (color code thottles) but at one point some one threw a turn out and I went onto the Yellow main and nothing happened to my engine but a change of speed and the person running the Yellow shut down my train pretty fast.
Only thing he wron me of is the engines must be heading the same drection but that is a given.
Here is a PIC of one of the block station’s.
Looking forward to having two thottles, well till Darrel that does not post much wants his 2500 back that is.[:)]
You are correct, you can run two seperate trains on two seperate mainlines without wiring cab control. BUT! that means the trains are basically stuck on the lines you put them on. You can run the trains across the other line, but in order to do so you will have to stop one train, either put it on an isolated track or just pull the engine off. Then when you cross to the other line the trian will be on the other throttle which means you have to check polarity and throttle setting and match them up. Once you are off the original mainline you have to shut the power off to that, park the train you have, put your engine back on the other train and only after all that can you get back to running. Doesnt sound like much fun to me[:(]
Plus if you are buying two nice MRC power packs you are already up to the cost of a decent DCC starter system. And if you are not interested in doing much wiring then DCC is for you.
I used MRC power packs when I operated DC. Prior to moving to my first basement I purchased two MRC-20 power packs for my small apartment layout. With a smaller apartment layout I used Atlas controler/selector for cab control.
I moved the MRC-20s to the new basement layout. Things worked great when I moved to the new basement layout until I decided to add a third cab. The cost of the rotary switches, 12 ga buss wire plus another MRC-20 power pack made switching to DCC a no brainer.
Quote “Now for the first question, when I want the train that is on line 1 cross over to line 2 and being all wheel pick up will the 2 driffrent thottle’s cause a problem? Would having matching thottles help?”
I have a similar setup using Kato Unitrack. Double main with a crossover track. I find that if I match the throttle setting approximately it works with kno problems. I have two MRC 2500 cabs, and Atlas selectors. Using insulated joiners and for now common rail for gnd , though I’ve been told best to insulate both rails. Don’t know about the opposite direction thing, sounds like you would have to be quick on the draw somewhere. Hope this helps, Dave
A couple years ago, before we got DCC at the modules, we isolated the section of the inside main that was between the accsess to the yard and the crossover to the outside main. The power to this section went through a DPDT switch before it got to the rails, that way we could reverse the polarity in only that section, so we could run a train out of the yard onto the outside main without stopping or reversing the train on the inside if it happened to be going the opposite direction. You had to time it just right to allow enough time for the train to cross the inside main, and we run mighty long trains there. It was quite an operation, going through several different blocks (3 mainlines) to get anywhere on the layout. As they say we were “running the track”.
Since we got DCC, we go in, throw a couple turnouts and run the train out, then we have to… Oh, no wait… thats it.
“I have a similar setup using Kato Unitrack. Double main with a crossover track. I find that if I match the throttle setting approximately it works with know problems”
Yep, that is what I was told by K-10. That is why I brought up passing from the Yellow Main Line from My Blue Main line. They where indpendent lines and no switches had to be thrown.
All my turns outs have to plactic rail joiners, so I am covered there. I think what confuess the help full people that have answer this post is they think I am trying to run a switch back or a Wyne (did I spell that right?) Main thing is when I want to run trains driffrent drections. Say Line 1 is going North and Line 2 is running South. I know that I would need quick on the draw is I want Line 1 Train go onto line 2 and Line 2 train head on to line 1. I guess that is where the switch would come in to play. That is not what I am trying to do.
I have made section of my tracks that are controled by switch so I can turn all power of to that section. Have plactic rail joiners on both rails and both ends. Have a power feeder in the center that can be turn on and off to kill that section of rail. I need to park one train in this section, kill the power. Throw one thottle to the drection the in coming train is heading then throw the turn out and I should be good to go.
Don’t get me wrong, I still want DCC, and still hope T-Satge hangs on to the one he has offred me. I bought the MRC 260 for two reasons.
1 MRC 2500 I am running is not mine, Darrel is not if a hurry for it back but if he does need it I need power.
2 Even with the great deal T-Stage has offer me, I still have no decoders for the few PK’s I have. On the cheap ones at $15.00 a poop that is $75.00 I don’t have to spare plus still running Blue Boxes that there is no way I have the money for at this point.
Main reason, I am buy lumber for a good board, so I can get rid of the PO
If Im reading it right it sounds like you have what you need right there. The way you have it now is the simple way to wire it, which is good, less potential problems. If you decide you want to be able to do the crossover without stopping one train you can always wire a polarity reversing switch or a power supply selector for each block.
What is happening in this case, is the train is being passed from one power supply to the next. In general this is not considered standard operational procedure. Generally one would want the same power supply (controller) to stay with the same train as it switches tracks around the layout. That is where the electrical switches come into the picture.
As long as you understand that… If the trains are running opposited directions and you aren’t quick, when the trains cross from one power supply to other going the opposiste way is when all the bad things people were describing above could happen.
