I’m building Pennsy in HO in Ohio in 1953. I have a 7 track freight yard with a caboose track. To help me when I’m ready to operate… When a train arrives in a yard, the caboose is detached and parked in the caboose track. A new train is made up and a loco assigned. A caboose is assigned too.
Is the loco permitted pull the train the full length of the yard with the new train and pick up the caboose as it is fully out on the main line? In other words are there any regulations that state that a loco cannot move a train without a caboose? Or any rules that check the train as it rolls before pickung up the caboose?
A caboose wasn’t required when moving cars within yard limits, which BTW could extend quite a ways beyond what would normally be thought of as the yard. So yes an engine could move a train of cars in a yard without a caboose. In some cases a railroad would have another railroad’s yard close enough to theirs that they could interchange cuts of cars without needing a caboose, or a railroad could move cars to a local industry located within yard limits without a caboose.
The normal procedure in making up a train would be a switch engine would assemble a train on a departure track - in steam days, the road engine would often be getting coal and water during that time. Once the train was complete, the switcher would tack a caboose onto the end of the train. Then the road engine would couple to the front of the train, pump up the air, and when given the signal proceed out onto the mainline or wherever it was going.
In 1953 cabooses were assigned to specific conductors or crews, so the switch engine in the example above would have to be sure to pull out the correct caboose from the caboose track. Caboose tracks were often double-ended, since the first crew to come in would normally be the first to go out. So a train would arrive and the caboose would be cut off and put at one end of the caboose tracks. Later train’s cabooses would be shoved in behind it, moving it closer to the other end. Usually by the time that caboose’s crew was called for a train, the caboose would be at or near the other end of the track so it would be easy for the switch crew to pull it out and couple it onto the rear of the outgoing train.
I’m building Pennsy in HO in Ohio in 1953. I have a 7 track freight yard with a caboose track. To help me when I’m ready to operate… When a train arrives in a yard, the caboose is detached and parked in the caboose track.
Only in the modeling world.On the prototype that cabin car(never a caboose in Pennsy speak) would go to the caboose service track for cleaning,restocking and servicing.
In our modeling world we take 'em to the cabin track.
A new train is made up and a loco assigned. A caboose is assigned too.
Absolutely as long as that cabin stays within its region.
Is the loco permitted pull the train the full length of the yard with the new train and pick up the caboose as it is fully out on the main line?
No…That is not the road crews job.Nor is it the yard crews job.That job is done by the cabin switch crew that handles all cabin car moves.
However,in our modeling world we would pull the complete train as you mention unless we have a double ended inbound/outbound track.
In other words are there any regulations that state that a loco cannot move a train without a caboose?
IIRC there was no such rules as long as a red flag or at night a red lantern was displayed on the end of the train-exception being yard moves.
Or any rules that check the train as it rolls before picking up the caboose?
No.Carmen has inspected and release the train…
However,
A roll by inspection by the rear brakeman would be done as the train departed the yard to ensure all brakes was release.He would swing aboard the cabin as it roll by.
i am not aware of any restrictions on movements within yard limits as to whether a caboose must be attached or not. that is to say, within yard limits, you can do pretty much what you want as long as you protect against 1st class trains while using the main line.
a lot of how you handle cabeese would depend upon whether you have assigned cabooses or pool cabs. i don’t know which is appropriate for the prototype and era you are modeling. when did the PRR stop assigning cabin cars and go to pool cabs?
my experience in railroading was for the caboose to be added after the train was made up. hard to do if you do not have a double ended yard. in model operation we have to cheat a bit now and then but, the prototypes rarely doubled the train to the cab.
in the era of assigned cabooses, the work rules often specified that the crew went off duty when the caboose was put away in the cab track upon arrival of an inbound train.
with pool cabs, the cab could be spotted on the departure track and the train built up on it but no conductor would stand for his home away from home being used as a bumping post.
many roads prohibited switching with a caboose attached. since you are modeling the P company you will not have to be too careful since their cabin cars were built like battle ships anyway. no doubt the result of the need for pushers on heavy grades.
can you imagine two snappers shoving against a train with something like the wooden way cars common on the “Q”. that clown box would collapse like a dixie cup.
That’s why sometimes you see pics of a helper engine pushing directly on the rear of the caboose, and sometimes it’s pushing on the last freight car with the caboose behind the helper. If a wood caboose didn’t have a steel underframe, a helper wasn’t allowed to push on it and had to move it behind the helper(s).
There are no “rules” that require a caboose/cabin anywhere, yard or main track, in or out of yard limits. The rules require the train to display markers (red flag or light on the rear of the train) and that the air pressure be known/observed on the rear of the train. If you stick a red flag in the rear knuckle and can convince the conductor or brakeman to walk to the back of the train with an air gauge every time you want to do an air test, go for the gusto. The real problem with not having a caboose is that the crew couldn’t comply with the flagging rules effectively. They don’t require a caboose, but if you don’t have one you can’t meet the requirements (why modern EOT equipped trains don’t have the same flagging rules).
Union agreements might require a caboose/cabin.
Technically if its picking up a caboose, its not “fully out on the main line”, since part of the train is still in the yard.
The real issues are work rules (union agrements) regarding who does what work in the yard and train handling issues. Backing an entire train back to make a joint on a single caboose is liable to launch the caboose out the other end of the track when the slack runs out. In the 1950’s they wouldn’t be passing signals by radio, it would be all hand signals. There is a few seconds delay in passing hand signals, so by the time you signal for the train to stop backing and its relayed through 2 other guys to the engineer, the train may have traveled 3 or 4 times the length of the caboose, then there is the slack running out.
grizlump :
when did the PRR stop assigning cabin cars and go to pool cabs?
The P Company went region pool long before I went to work as a P company brakeman in '66.I am told it was in the 20s.
with pool cabs, the cab could be spotted on the departure track and the train built up on it but no conductor would stand for his home away from home being used as a bumping post.
Don’t know about the Q but,on the P company the cabin was added last by the cabin switch crew.
many roads prohibited switching with a caboose attached.
Again don’t know about the Q but,that was a common practice on the PRR especially locals-some locals would have 2 cabins.One next to the engine and one at the end of the train…
In the 1950’s they wouldn’t be passing signals by radio, it would be all hand signals. There is a few seconds delay in passing hand signals, so by the time you signal for the train to stop backing and its relayed through 2 other guys to the engineer, the train may have traveled 3 or
All of the replies are good info. However, there are always exceptions. If the yard was too small to warrant a switcher or there was no switcher on duty, say on the graveyard trick, a local train might do it’s own switching. This might also apply to a small yard that local trains terminated and originated at so there might be more than one caboose on hand. There are examples of this even in the steam era. But I agree that in those days crews were assigned their own cabooses. But if there was a switcher assigned, the switching was ONLY handled by the switcher. Some small yards had a switcher as the switcher might be assigned to service the area industries and interchanges anyway. The Wabash’s Gary switch run in Gary Indiana was such an example. In addition to switching the area they would also make up the mixed train that headed east to Montpelier, Ohio every other day except Sunday. It is interesting to note that the small eight track Gary yard (which like many model railroad yards) was a stub ended yard. But there was no roundhouse, turntable or ash pit. Ashes were dumped on the ground, an elevated track was next to the engine track for coal to be shovled from a gondola into the tender and water went into the tender with a hose. (Enough coal and water was supplied to the mixed train loco to get the train to the next mainline coaling station.) They did have a night hostler on duty to handle that. He was a black man that lived in a nearby shanty.
It is interesting to note that at some very large yards like that on the Pennsy the “cabin” track would be on an incline so that a cabin could be uncoupled and rolled down to the train. Also, some crews would go to great pains to mark their cabooses to distinguish them from on another. Two examples on the Big Four in Ohio I’'ve seen were interesting: One had a stuffed moose head mounted on the roof and another a NYC sign on the end of the cupola!
A lot of times we would have 20-30 cars…The extra cabin was use by the conductor and rear brakeman so they would be near the work and the end of the train protected by a cabin.Now if the train exceed 31 cars we would have 3 brakemen due to the work involved and a extra cabin would be attached to the front of the engine.
You could have a five-man crew where the engineer and fireman were in the locomotive, the head-end brakeman in the caboose behind the engine, and the conductor and rear brakeman in the caboose. Some railroads put a “doghouse” on the tender for the head brakeman to ride in so wouldn’t require the extra caboose up front.
The B&O used to use two cabooses on some locals. The rear caboose was for the flagman (rear brakeman). The front caboose would be for the conductor and the front brakeman, since the crew usually tries to make the setouts and pickups from the head end of the train. Of course, after most of the firemen were taken off freight (around 1964?) the front man would usually be on the engine, with the conductor in the caboose, at the table doing his paperwork, the most important of which was always the timecard[swg]
If you like cabooses - er cabin cars - using two of them on your locals is a good excuse to have some extra ones around.
The extra caboose behind the engine depends on the road, on some roads it was against the rules to have a caboose other than the rear end of the train (they didn’t want a really short light car between the engines and train.)
It also depends on how thorough the railroad was about its air tests. If they went by the letter, they had somebody on the rear of the train.
A lot of locomotives had what we called a “jump seat” behind the fireman’s seat where the head brakeman sit…This is especially true for diesel locomotives even though many steamers had 'em…
This may come as a shock but,some times on a local only the first 3 or 4 cars would have air.This was common on urban locals where there was very little speed and lots of stops.
Again the conductor and rear brakeman would ride the “lead” caboose.It help speed things up a tad as far as walking the length of the train at every stop.
BTW guys…The flagman job was eliminated after block control moved the trains.His job was folded into the rear brakeman’s job…We would drop fusses if there was a need but,usually a signal protected our train when we was stopped…
Loving the stories! Always had a soft spot for the SROW even though i grew up on grangers,I do love the Pennsy.
Now talking to old heads some say the caboose,waycar, cabin whatever would be tied on after the train was made up. Add the road power and the car knockers would blue flag and make the hoses.By then either the hostlers would make the air test or if the road crew was on the power they would.Every yard I have worked except Cheyenne Wy has had a carman to run the set and release as well as the roll by.So if your yard has carmen they will have their jobs. Whether inbound inspection,making hoses,air tests and watching trains out.
Now heres a question that may be off topic, but in Indiana IIRC they had a “full crew law” what exactly was that and did they use a caboose for it? I have seen some pics of what looks like a converted boxcar as a rider car up by the head end.But did they have special cars or could a caboose be grabbed in a pinch
Here in the East some states required flagging even if the rear end was protected by automatic block signals. IIRC PA had a flagging law into the late 1960s. I know NJ had a flagging law at least up to 1979 or so. The flagman didn’t have to go far back, but they wanted him on the ground behind the cabin. Unless the conductor directed otherwise, the rear brakeman would do the flagging. A newly hired brakeman could not work the rear end until he was qualified flagging by the rules examiner.
Full crew laws specified which empoyees had to be on each train, such as a engineer, fireman, conductor, head brakeman and rear brakeman.
Every train covered by the law had to have that crew on it.
Basically a make work law. Most were eliminated in the 1960’s and 1970’s . Didn’t have anything to do with cabooses per se. In Mexico at one time they needed a conductor and 2 brakemen plus another brakeman for every 25 cars over 50. So an 85 car train would have a conductor and 4 brakemen.
Now a lot of the older engineers would “shake 'em loose”.
He would pull ahead in run 1 till the train stalled.He would reverse the engines and back up till the engines stalled…He would continued this until the conductor would radio:
“Engine 6161 your rear is on the move.”
“Roger moving on the rear”.
This ensured the engineer that the brakes was release…He would now put the whip to 'em and head out of town.
The rear brakeman that was making a roll by would swing on the cabin as it rolled by-some times at a fast run.