I recently aquired this original photograph of an old engine. I think it looks like a brand new engine just being handed over. The man on the footplate has magnificent ‘mutton chop’ whiskers and is dressed in his Sunday best. The only identifying marks I can make out is ‘57’ on a plate below the driver and the date 1887. There is another plate just visible but I can’t make out what it says. I don’t really understand the designation system and would really appreciate any information anyone could give me. I presume it is a British manufacturer.
Definetly European. By designation I believe you mean it says “1-2-0” instead of the American White system of “2-4-0”. Is it on an erecting floor or in a shop for repairs? The open cab suggests someplace further south than England…like France or Spain, or other Mediteranean country. But then agian, the shed feels more English, maybe French or Belgian. Sorry can’t throw any more at you. Good luck.
Thanks for your input. Would the large ‘57’ on the plate help to identify the maker? I thought perhaps it could be in a builders works, it looks very new and shiney.
Also, what would the designation be, 2-4-0?
I did wonder about the open cab. Seems unusual, or perhaps unfinished?
Well then-heres a nice little puzzler …[swg]…Gonna stick my neck out and suggest:-British,either by Kirtley for the Midland Rly (Rich,deep crimson lake livery ) or something by Webb for the London & North Western Rly ( dark blackberry black polished to a mirror finish ),although I would incline to the former-as to the 57 reference-that would be about the right diameter for the driving wheels in inches or even the works (as opposed to running) number…With your permission,I will copy the pic across to the Our place thread-we have a few Brit railers there who may be able to cast more light…
O.K-looked again-you can see the boiler band lining so obviously not LNWR black…she has the double frames right through the engine and tender,with the outside springs which suggests an engine built in England but converted to run on the Irish broad gauge (53").....<br><br><br><br>P.S-the weatherboard cab front was standard for the time-engine crews wore white uniforms at that time and were always expected to be immaculately turned out........<br><br><br><br>That said,Im still thinking Midland Railway…
It’s a British engine, not European, so it’s a 2-4-0. It’s at a station, inside the train shed. Open cabs were the norm on British engines until late in the nineteenth century.
No, it’s a standard gauge engine, and it hasn’t been regauged to 5’3". Outside frames were again very common on British-built engines up until the end of the 19th century, and double frames such as these were favoured by the engine’s designer. It’s not an MR engine either - too many details differ from MR practice.
It’s a Manchester Sheffield & Lincolnshire Railway engine, Class 12A, designed by Charles Sacre. This railway later became the Great Central Railway. “57” is it’s running number, not a builder’s number or a reference to the diameter of the coupled wheels, which were 6ft 0.5in/72.5"
IMHO it appears a Kirtly built engine for the London Midland & Scotish Rwy…circa 1860…sandwich frames with a rise over the main journals tellsme…i have a simular pic i can scan if you want to see
See my previous posts - it’s not an MR Kirtley engine. They look like this:
Kirtley wasn’t the builder, but the engineer* who designed the locos. And in 1860 there was no London Midland & Scottish Rly - it wasn’t formed until the Grouping in 1923.
Mark.
*The use of the word engineer is with the English meaning of “locomotive designer”, and not the American meaning of “engine driver”.
I notice the gent on the footplate (cab) is wearing a suit and bolwer hat, so probably isn’t one of the crew. Could this be the designer, or a railway co. official?? May be some important event like a test run of a new engine, or some type of special train maybe?
You are probably wrong here as suit and tie were worn by many people up and down the trade scale in both Britain and the U.S. well into the 20th Century. Even the disciples well into the 50’s wore shirts, ties, even jackets and hats, on the Saturday fan trip to the hinterlands!
If you look at photos of British railways of the period, you’ll see that this was fairly typical dress for enginemen. The railway companies didn’t generally issue uniforms to their staff until much later, and overalls were not yet available.
If the date of 1887 given is correct, then I suggest that this was just a normal day’s work for the regular crew of this engine. I’ve seen an illustration showing Sacre, neither of the blokes in this photo look like him. The loco is not displaying special train headcodes, either. I think the photo may be one taken as part of a series by E. Pouteau.
Hi guys-to Mark in Aus.-A good spot mate [tup]-well done,as to white uniforms ,you have caught me in a generalisation-my understanding was that loco crews on gods wonderful wore the white jackets and extended the thinking from there…I stand corrected [^]-any idea what livery this little beauty would have worn ??..
Yup-I think Mark has the right of it-and a fine pic of a Kirtley 2-4-0 in L.M.S colours to round it out [^]-nice one chaps-always room for this sort of informed debate on the Our Place thread…see you there-first drink is on me…
