I am working on my layout design, and I have come up with a neat one I think. I am going to create a junction, and have a yard on each side of it. I will have three main lines going from west to east. Each yard wil have several sets of tracks, switches, etc. Each yard will have a loop around track that goes back to the main line track.
I am hoping (fingers crossed) that I can loop the main line tracks at the ends of the table and by using CTC and/or DCC programming, create regular ‘through’ traffic on the main lines. The fun will be in shunting cars from yard to yard, building trains, and sending them on their way. Then by using CTC again, we can pick a train and bring it into the yard to take apart. If all goes well (the CTC, and signal system) there will be lots of fun, if not…CRASH!!! [:)]
I would enjoy reading your comments about if CTC / DCC can be set up to do this? Ideally CTC & block detection would allow/prevent my trains from entering/crossing the main lines, when other ‘through’ trains have already seized a route. As well, in the event that a train were to become stopped on a main line for what ever reason (I’m gone to get a beer [:D]) then the CTC will automatically re-route a ‘through’ train onto another main track.
By CTC I assume you mean something like C/MRI. Yes, C/MRI and/or just about any DCC system with a computer interface can be set up to automate part or all of a layout. However, it isn’t the C/MRI or DCC that actually does the automation, it’s really done by the computer software that talks to them. Take a look at these for starters:
That said, the description of what you want to do sounds more like setting routes and signal indications rather than full-blown automation. That can be done without necessarily using any software, but you will still need the block detection, “smart” stationary decoders, etc.
It could be done by a PC…sure, I’d like that if its a ‘good’ system. As for setting routes I would like the system to automate some of it…i.e. the ‘through trains’ but as for my manual train shunting, I would like to be able to manually input my own routes, or at least select starting point ‘A’ and end point ‘Z’ and the system automatically builds the route for me. Also, when my route crosses over onto a main track, I would like the system to automatically take a eastbound or westbound train on that track and automatically re-route it over to another main ‘through’ track. Is this auto-rerouting possible?
I get 96 digital I/O that cold be used for signals and block detection. I know my digital electronics exceptionally well (AND, OR, NOT, NAND, NOR, even stuff like JK latches)…but my fear would be the actual programming part, and then the building instructions / routes on the fly!
I’ve never used that before, and to be honest I’ve never heard of it, either (not that that means anything! [:D]). It looks like it’s geared to the Zimo system, and like Zimo, it’s very expensive.
Keep in mind that sending feedback from the layout to whatever control system you use is arguably going to be the most important piece of the puzzle. After all, whether that control system is simple or complex, it can’t control anything if it doesn’t know what’s happening on the layout. And of course, the finer level of control you want, the finer level of feedback you’re going to have to provide.
You’re likely to incur a great deal of expense providing that feedback (block detection, turnout feedback, transponding or other “feedback” decoders, etc.) from the layout to whatever control system you use.
My personal opinion is that you can use a less expensive DCC system and less expensive software (JMRI is free) and still accomplish everything that you initially said you want to do.
Of course, if you figuratively speaking want all the bells and whistles, by all means buy the Zimo stuff.
In all modes, a PC is attached to the system but may not necessarily play an active role in certain roles.
Mode A. In mode A my layout is completely dark. The signal system is off. There is no CTC. The PC could be used as a stationary DCC unit to send commands. There is no automation of anything. There is no route concepts what so ever. Movement of trains, switches, etc are controlled manually by a person via DCC.
Mode B. The signal system is on. The signal system only provides guidance via the signals indicating block speed, and switch position status. There is no automation of anything. There is no train protection. There is no CTC. There is no route concepts what so ever. Movement of trains, switches, etc are controlled manually by a person via DCC. It is up to me and my buddies to (a) obey the signals, (b) throw our own switches (via DCC), and (c) watch what is happening so we dont crash.
Mode C. The signal system is on. There is no CTC. The signal system is providing: (a) indication of block status, and switch status, and (b) providing train protection by controlling speed limits on the blocks. Red = stop, yellow = slow, green = block speed. The system would be programmed so that different block have different yellow and green speeds. There is no automation of anything else. There is no route concepts what so ever. Movement of trains, switches, etc are controlled manually by the user(s) via DCC. If a user tries to do an illegal operation (i.e (a) pass a red, (b) change a switch into an occupied siding, etc,) the system will not let him, and will notify him somehow. In this mode users could stand back and watch, and the system will take care of itself. Occasionally manual user input would be required to resolve an issue, i.e, two trains stopped because they are approaching one another and both have red. If we all left the room for a day, we should come back and not see a c
In all modes, a PC is attached to the system but may not necessarily play an active role in certain roles.
Mode A. In mode A my layout is completely dark. The signal system is off. There is no CTC. The PC could be used as a stationary DCC unit to send commands. There is no automation of anything. There is no route concepts what so ever. Movement of trains, switches, etc are controlled manually by a person via DCC.
Mode B. The signal system is on. The signal system only provides guidance via the signals indicating block speed, and switch position status. There is no automation of anything. There is no train protection. There is no CTC. There is no route concepts what so ever. Movement of trains, switches, etc are controlled manually by a person via DCC. It is up to me and my buddies to (a) obey the signals, (b) throw our own switches (via DCC), and (c) watch what is happening so we dont crash.
Mode C. The signal system is on. There is no CTC. The signal system is providing: (a) indication of block status, and switch status, and (b) providing train protection by controlling speed limits on the blocks. Red = stop, yellow = slow, green = block speed. The system would be programmed so that different block have different yellow and green speeds. There is no automation of anything else. There is no route concepts what so ever. Movement of trains, switches, etc are controlled manually by the user(s) via DCC. If a user tries to do an illegal operation (i.e (a) pass a red, (b) change a switch into an occupied siding, etc,) the system will not let him, and will notify him somehow. In this mode users could stand back and watch, and the system will take care of itself. Occasionally manual user input would be required to resolve an issue, i.e, two trains stopped because they are approaching one another and both have red. If
Okay, agreed, but putting shunting aside, can the Zimo system give block detection and “stop and stay” on a red due to block occupency ahead, if that is the way I want it?? …and then the signal goes yellow, the train proceeds at a programmed speed that is for example 50% of block speed? …and when the signal goes green then the train automatically goes 100% of block speed?..and this happens when me and me buddies are doing nothing but just sitting back, having a few beers, and just watching the system play it self out with no real rhyme or reason?
Also on another note, and not really important to me…Could I also create my own custom signal aspects?? For example red&yellow = 25% block speed, and green&yellow is 75% block speed?
Yes of course you can do that. That’s what ZIMO’s signal controlled speed influence is all about. As the name implies, ZIMO will control train speed according to signal settings.
There are 5 different speed limit signals you can have ZIMO apply to specific sections of track to either slow or stop a train or simply keep the train speed limited going through a construction zone for instance. Each of those 5 limits are defined in the loco decoder and can be anywhere from 0 to 100% of maximum speed. Maximum speed here is not the highest possible speed but rather the maximum speed you set with your cab for this loco. You could also call it cruising speed. This gives you the choice of having each train going through a yellow
Art I read this on one of the STP Adobe PDFs… “no control commands are sent directly to any loco decoders. Instead trains are controlled indirectly via track sections”.
What does this mean exactly? Does this mean I have to electrically seperate (Isolate) each of my blocks?
Whenever you want occupancy detection and/or loco number location you have to create blocks, regardless of the system used. An advantage with ZIMO systems: you only have to create those blocks on one rail. The other rail (common) remains intact.
STP can, with the help of the ZIMO signal controlled speed influence, control train speed without sending speed commands to each decoder.
In simple words, STP sends speed limit commands for the whole route to a track section module at the time a route is set that is, long before the train reaches a stop section for example. The track section module then can make its own decisions as to what speed limit each block requires and at which time (a route can contain more than one block). All ZIMO decoders can interpret these speed limit signals and react accordingly.
This is a big advantage over normal PC control where a PC sends a stop command to a loco(s) “just in time”. It can never happen with ZIMO/STP that a computer is faced with situations where several trains reach a point on a layout that requires it to make decisions and send out the proper commands to many decoder addresses at the same time.
You can also use STP to send direct commands to individual locos to control speed, direction and functions for specific situations. For example: I have on my own layout several trains for whom a specific station is the end of the line. Once the train entered the station it waits there for the programmed seconds/minutes. After the time elapsed, STP sets the exit route in the opposite direction the train entered and then sends a DCC signal to the loco to reverse direction. All
Okay cool. One last question (I think[:)] )…how well will Zimo and Digitrax interoperate? I am very interested in a local Bend Track club and they use Digitrax. From what I can gather they are not using blocks and signaling.
We each have our own section that we build (at home) and then we ‘snap’ our sections together into a “layout of the day”. So, (let’s say there was 8 of us), we would each be controlling trains that run all over the layout.
How well would my section of layout specifically built using Zimo, interoperate with the rest of the layout using Digitrax? Can Zimo and Digitrax co-exist in the same layout at the same time? What happens when a guy using Digitrax runs a train into the ‘Zimo zone’?? Is there a way that a Digitrax system and a Zimo system can be connected so that they relay the commands from one another…that is… a Digitrax issued command is also sent to the Zimo system, which thens relays (sends) the command to the Zimo section.
I suspect you are gonna tell me that two DCC systems cannot interoperate.
Unfortunately, the NMRA RP’s only cover interaction at the decoder level. That means you can run locos equiped with Digitrax decoders on a ZIMO layout and vice versa unrestricted in manual mode. But a ZIMO command station could not use the Transponding information of a Digitrax decoder and the Digitrax command station would not be able to process the ZIMO loco number ID pulses nor would the Digitrax decoders understand the signal controlled speed influence commands. The Digitrax Loconet and the ZIMO CAN bus are not compatible either.
Hmmm, sounds like the way data networks were ten years ago. IP could work with Ethernet, and IPX could work with Ethernet, but IP and IPX are not compatible.
Is there no way where we can run both Zimo and Digitrax simulteanously on the same track, and they control their trains, and I control my trains and CTC/signals?..but then their trains would be ‘disconnected’ from my CTC/signals correct?
It sounds like I have some decisions to make and more research to do. I really like what you have told me about the Zimo, but if it would create compatibility and useability issues with the club I might join then that’s not really viable either. [:(]
This is true for most systems.
If interoperability is the most important aspect for choosing a DCC system then I would suggest you go with what your buddies are using.
On the other hand if system features and functions that are found only in ZIMO systems, as we discussed, are more important to you then the logical choice would be ZIMO. You could still swap locos with your buddies, just not cabs.
It’s you who gets to chose and you better chose the system you really like, because switching to the system “you should have bought in the first place” will only make it more expensive!
Yes I know, but I plan to build a juction and yard, and thought my CTC and other ideas would bring some ‘fun and value’ to the club…but if they can’t use it then that is no ‘fun’. [:)]
The other option I guess is to use their DigitTrax when we get together, and let them enjoy some of the features that they can use on the Zimo decoders…ie basic switch control, basic signal control, etc…and then on occasion I can show em what I can do with Zimo and make em jealous! [:D]
Hi all, any Digitrax experts here??..I mean you know Digitrax better than you know your spouse! For those of you that are, can you help me understand what it is that Digitrax can do in terms of CTC / signaling?..and what it cannot do?
I have been trying to find information, but am not convinced that it can do the stuff I am looking for. I also fear that I might have to buy hardware from one company, software from another company, etc… I like a one vendor solution from a company that truly makes well designed products.
If you can, perhaps a quick review of this thread, see what it is I want to do, and maybe you can make some comments? Thank you in advance. [:)]
Art, let me ask you one last question…Can I EASILY do this: #1 unplug my section from the Zimo controller at home, and take it to the club, #2 still use my Zimo decoders #2 connect it to their Digitrax controller, and we can all enjoy trains, #3 we can control switches and signals manually #4 we can have automatic block occupency and signals #5 (fingers crossed) we can have some CTC functionality assuming we (the club) have got the gear.
Thank you in advance…gee maybe other readers would appreciate a very detailed Zimo versus Digitrax comparism report?? I know I would!!