OK I checked the track feeders on all track in the ferry yard. They are all connected to teh ferry yard bus line. The sorting yard is next.
Rich, the EB1 wiring is correct, I re-checked all wires. I removed All jumpers which now trips the breakers at 2.5 AMPS. Do you think for some reason the short os registering with the Command station before the breakers trip? Does the PSX breaker react faster?
I think that is one possibility although Randy thinks differently, and I respect his opinion. So, I cannot say that for sure.
I will say that I had a similar problem when I had Digitrax AR-1s on my layout. When I added some PSX circuit breakers to protect my newly created power districts, I had to swap out the AR-1s for PSX-ARs since the PSX was reacting quicker than the AR-1.
Now, admittedly, the EB1 may be constructed differently than the AR-1 which operated off of a mechanical relay. And, also, as Randy points out, since your booster and the EB1 are both NCE products, it is difficult to imagine that they wouldn’t work well together.
But, if your wiring and gapping are flawless, then the problem would seem to be with the EB1.
Let’s look at this from a different perspective. Let’s say that the EB1 is working correctly and that it trips when the current exceeds 3.5 amps, so that it shuts down its power district it is supposed to protect without shutting down the other EB1 protected power districts. OK, so now what? What is left to consider? Yep, improper wiring or gapping.
Rich
Yea, thats what I’m thinking. certinally will be cheaper but it’s going to take a while to check all those feeders. [:(]
Gary, in thinking more about this problem, is there any other circuitry on your layout that feeds into those EB1s?
Also, another simple test would be to disconnect the wiring from the terminal block and pigtail the three wires from the input side of the three EB1s to the wire from the command station currently feeding into the terminal block. Do this for the red wires and a separate pigtail for the black wires.
I would be interested to see if that makes any difference. Perhaps the problem is with the setup of the terminal block. Doubt it but you never know.
Rich
Here is another thing you might do if it has not already been suggested.
Disconnect the two yards from the output side of their EB1s, so that only the main line is powered. Do the quarter test.
If the EB1 shuts down the main line before the short reaches the booster, disconnect the main line from the EB1 and connect one of the yards to the output side of its EB1. Do the quarter test.
If the EB1 shuts down the yard before the short reaches the booster, disconnect the yard from the EB1 and connect the other yard to the output side of its EB1. Do the quarter test.
Rich
It wouldn;t hurt to double check the CV that controls the trip time and make sure it is on the defulat of 16ms. Enough gerfingerpoken and you could have accidently set it to something higher which would allow the command station to trip first.
Something else to try to eliminate the EB-1 - disconnect the outputs of all 3. Take a short piece of wire and one at a time, short right at the output of each EB-1 and see if the EB-1 trips or the nain system breaker trips. Make sure the trip speed is set correctly first. If everything works shorting right at the EB-1, then you know the issue is in the layout wiring. If two EB-1s work and the third one doesn’t, you likely have a defective EB-1.
–Randy
I thought it was established in the Sunday morning post that the breakers were tripping and not the command station. Maybe I misread the post.
Is there not an overload led on one of these components that lights up when it is tripped?
I don’t know if we are certain of that. What is shutting down the power to one or more power districts? The EB1 or the booster?
Rich
I enlarged the 1st photo and it looks like a standard European barrier strip. The booster input goes to (from left to right)
Black 1 and Red 2
It doesn’t look like much can go wrong there. Twisting the wires together doesn’t seem like it would be electrically different.
The EB1 is programmable by CV’s I don’t know how hard it is to inadvertently change those settings.
Yeah, I see your point, Henry. That type of terminal block seems hard to screw up. Still…
I would still like to test the input wiring by bypassing the terminal block. I like the pigtail idea, given the nature of the problem.
I am not familiar with the EB1. Can the trip current adjustment only be performed by changing CV values? No physical jumpers?
Rich
According to the instructions, the trip current can only be set by the jumpers. Trip time, how long it stays off (or manual reset), and the way it comes back on (there’s an option for staged power restoration, to handle high inrush current sound decoders) is all set via CVs.
–Randy
I had issues with the PSXs not working properly with a CVP Easy DCC 10 Amp booster. Not the same equipment, but the same problem; the system shut down instead of the individual circuit board protecting the block.
Changing the circuit board to “manual reset” solved the issue. The EB1 manual, page 4, needs to have CV 131 set to a value of “1” to enable the manual reset.
Do the quarter test again to see if the EB1 protects its block without shutting down the entire system.
If it passes this test, install a momentary open push button on terminal 1 & 2. Push the button to reset the circuit breaker.
This problem is typical when using a newer command station and older circuit breakers.
Making progress, there is a point under the layout where the Main and Sorting yard busses cross and there I found 2 feeders from the sorting yard connected to the main bus.
I have now color coded the three districts busses and feeders with colored Velcro wrap. I know the ferry yard is good. I need to fix the Sorting yard track and then chck that al the main feeders are connected only to teh main. I don’t think the main will be a problem since i installed that before i added the two yards. But, you never know.
I didn’t know I could program the breakers. I need to look into that AFTER I confirm all connections.
Bag the terminal strip and the NCE circuit breakers. Get 3 PSX1s (or 1 PSX3) daisy chain them and connect directly to the control box.
Yeah, you’re making progress, but I think that some of the other suggestions made in the replies from others could shortcut the whole testing process.
Looking at feeders under the layout is not as reliable as actual testing, such as the quarter test, isolating circuit breakers from one another, bypassing the terminal block. Good investigative work requires the process of elimination, trying to eliminate possible trouble spots.
As far as color coding feeding wires is concerned, using colored tape or Velcro strips or whatever, is less reliable than the actual use of colored wire. If this is going to be a permanent layout, you should set up a protocol for bus wires and for feeders. Do you want one set of bus wires or do you want a main bus and a sub bus for each of the two yards? Each bus should consist of different colored wires and the feeders should match the colors of the respective bus wires.
Rich
That explains some of the short behavior, without having to replace anything. Two of your districts were really one district powered by two circuit breakers.
Somewhere there is also a connection between the Ferry Yard and one of the other two.districts.
EDIT As I think about it, it might be useful to repeat the quarter test if you have completely sorted through the Sorting Yard wiring. My theory is there is no conflict between your booster and the circuit breakers. If the Main and the Sorting are now truly isolated, the quarter in one, will not affect the other. But the quarter in onef of those yards will take out the Ferry yard too.
Rich, shouldn’t the first step be making sure the wiring is correct?
Confirming that ONLY Feeders from each district are connected to the appropriate bus?
Once that is confirmed then I can do the other tests. No?
Also I see in the EB1 Manual that I’m supposed to remove the “shunt” after installation is complete. I’m not doing any of this programming but the “Jumper/Shunt” remains in place.
Method 1:
Any DCC system that has OPs mode programming (Program On the Main) for locomotives can program CVs. Whenever the “SETUP” shunt is installed the EB1 will respond to loco OPS mode programming no matter what locomotive address is used. We recommend choosing an address that is not in use on your layout (we use 9999). Remember that the shunt must be installed to use this method of setting CVs. Do not forget to remove the shunt when done programming.
Method 2:
If you have an NCE (or other system) that supports OPs mode programming of accessories you can program CVs without having to install the “SETUP” shunt.
The EB1 comes from the factory preprogrammed to the accessory address of 2044 (the accessory broadcast address).
To change the address:
Install the “SETUP” shunt
Press SELECT ACCY on your controller
Type in the new address you want to EB1 to use followed by ENTER Press 1 (for NORMAL) when prompted on your controller
Remove the shunt
The EB1 will now respond to Accessory Programming at the address you just programmed.
All three of my EB1’s still have this jumper installed. Is that a problem? Also the manual is not clear since the diagram refers to this jumper as “Setup Jumper” and the text above calls it a “Shunt”.
Gary I edited my post while you were posting yours.
A shunt would be a jumper. I did read the directions a couple days ago, but it wasn’t clear to me what them meant. However it must be the setup jumper.
Rich or Randy will have to explain what it’s effect is but if they say to remove it, I would remove it before further testing, and save it some place safe, in case you do want to use the programming function later.
Yes, the first step should be to make sure that the wiring is correct.
But, a visual check of the wiring often fails to detect a fault. You, me, and a host of others on the forum have visually checked our wiring at one time or another and concluded that all is well when it isn’t. That’s why other, more appropriate, voltage and current tests are more reliable.
Rich
Gary, I don’t own the EB1, but as I read the manual, shunt and jumper are one and the same.
Regarding the Setup Jumper, you should “remove” it because you are not using it. To remove it, and to prevent losing it, just keep it on the circuit board by leaving it on only one of the two pins.
Regarding the trip current jumpers (shunts), if you simply default to 2.5 amps, none of the shunts should be in place. Again, to avoid losing them, just leave each connected to only one of the two pins. If no shunts are in place (that is, none of them connect to both pins), the EB1 should trip above 2.5 amps.
Rich