Bob, your probably right. It’s probably gone to finance the caboose he wanted to make which might or might not see the light of day.
TA462,
How did you pay for the pre-order, cash or credit card?
If you prepaid with a credit card, get the credit card issuer involved. They can fight the battle for you, and if all else fails, you can get your money back from the credit card company.
Rich
And no matter how this turns out, it just reinforces my poor opinion of this preorder non sense.
Respectfully, I will submit that anyone who thinks we are stuck with the “preorder system” is part of the problem.
Many of you “bought into” this, making the manufacturers think they can get away with it.
How about you pay me $5000 now and I will design that addtion for your house next year? Or better yet give me $50,000 and I will remodel your kitchen starting 18 months from now? This preorder non sense is no less absurd.
I have no “soft spot in my heart” for people in business who cannot fund their business as needed - I best stop this thought at that - the sensors are reading.
When the dust settles from all this non sense, all the tooling that is out there will still exist, and someone will put up the money to make more model trains with it - it has been true since the begining of this hobby, it will carry on.
I have said that the business practices of several companies in this business make it clear they are marginally funded - if you can’t run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.
Sheldon
I don’t think the pre-order issue is the problem here…it’s the requirement of deposits from retailers. Let’s look at the case of CMT for example: they required deposits on pre-orders, but those did NOT go to the manufacturers. That is a measure CMT took to cover their own risks in taking the pre-orders.The actual requirements of deposits from manufacturers is rare. Rapido Trains’ recent “Canadian” set was one such example (understandable, when producing a $1500 limited run set), but for their other products, CMT has the deposit money for their own purposes and it never went any further than that.
If you don’t like having to pay a deposit, you can almost always go to a retailer who doesn’t require one. I can think of quite a few Canadian examples, even in Ontario (since we’re talking about CMT) that don’t require deposits on typical pre-orders.
I think certain individuals in the industry (I’m thinking particularly of Jason Shron of Rapido Trains) have made it exceedingly clear why pre-orders are a “necessary evil” (see the end of this newsletter for elaboration: http://www.rapidotrains.com/telegraph20.html), especially for the smaller companies, and as we get used to being able to have increasingly accurate representations of rare or niche prototypes. But what needs to be made clear again is this: the manufa
Sheldon, you are in a situation where you don’t need to buy into this process. You can meet your modelling needs other ways, and do it. Some of us enter into an exchange of ‘good will’ where we are willing to ante up some money to show our interest in certain items that are otherwise not going to be available to us. In exchange, the builders/importers agree to do the leg work and bring these items to market. Everyone should win in this arrangement…IF…everyone follows through honourably. Those who don’t have the time, skill, resources, or inclination to build a certain item can get it made if the supplier feels sufficient commitment and sufficiently low risk. In CMT’s case, and I don’t yet understand or accept all the angst because I have no reason to think that Tim left everyone high and dry (it will be clear ere long, but not so clear to me at present), he entered into such an arrangement, or acted as an intermediary, between suppliers and clients. I should note, though, that on another forum Jason Shron seems to feel that CMT’s demise is very much a calamity that no one saw coming, and that CMT was his largest customer, or one of them…so he may have a handle on the picture that I don’t see today.
Anyway, I don’t think this is a problem with pre-ordering per se. I think it may just be a matter of market share, how one prices things, how easily one can sell things and how much of them he can sell, and so on. In other words, some businesses fail while others thrive. CMT seemed hell-bent on supplying mostly Canadian customers, and frankly, his prices were far from competitive. Places like trainworld and modeltrainstuff are spanking the heavy majority of those retailers still left in the business. They take pre-orders.
To my knowledge, Factory Direct Trains normally charges your credit card one red cent for pre-orders. Payment in full is required only upon shipping. That seem
Tim,
Based on my observations and experiences in my 40 plus years in this hobby, including nearly 10 years working in, and managing train departments in several hobby shops, preorders, and the “buy it now or never own it” marketing that is currently popular is not good for the hobby or the industry in the long run.
I am not going to repeat the reams of info I have posted on this subject in the past, but will address a few of your comments.
The marketing practice of selling via preorder, then later dumping the remaining product cheap, is very bad for retailers and for the hobby in general - biggest offender by far - Broadway Limited. and yes, I’m suggesting that if that is how you need to do business the hobby would be better off without you.
I have no problem with Jason or the business model at Rapido, but I also have yet to need or want any of his products.
I actually like ExactrRail’s direct marketing approach, but don’t need/want much of their product either.
I am not a “collector” of famous locos or passenger trains custom crafted overseas in any medium, brass, plastic or otherwise. I don’t own a Big Boy, PRR K4, NYC Hudson, GG1, or any of a long list of famous stuff people “collect”.
As Crandell suggests from his knowledge of me, I’m one of those old “modeler” types who actually builds models of trains.
Sure I buy my share of todays new products, be they RTR or kit, but I’m surely not holding by breath waiting for XYZ to make that one special item I can’t live without.
News flash, model trains have ALLWAYS been manufacturered on a short run limited production basis - and then re-run after those were sold. Nothing new here except the opportunistic marketing of getting people to commit to buying before the factory even makes them.
“-If you don’t want to pre-order period, then be prepared to miss out on some of the models you want.”
Sheldon, your way off base with preordering. I model a very small railway, the Ontario Northland and when something new is produced I either preorder or I miss it. ONR stuff is produced in such small amounts that I really don’t have a choice. Same goes for something that is very popular like Rapido’s CP cabooses or when a manufacturer needs preorders to help build the project then I don’t have a problem with it, like the Canadian. Regular run of the mill stuff like the newer Atlas CN GP40 wide cabs there was no need to. We didn’t buy into nothing, the only manufacturer that ever asked for a deposit was Rapido for the Canadian. Funny thing though, the people that complained the most were the people that didn’t even order one. We are taking about a once reputable hobby shop and owner that was HUGE in Ontario and Canada that because of his reputation deposits were given. CMT was the only shop I ever dealt with that asked for deposits. Once the dust settles Tom Tomblin will still own the tooling for the caboose he says he was going to produce, that is unless enough of us get together and sue him. We are not talking about just deposits for his caboose but deposits for everything that you can imagine from every model railroad manufacturer out there. I think you really need to stay quiet on this one, you don’t have any first hand knowledge on the topic and your post kind of sounds like your trying to start a fight with people that do. [%-)]
Just wondering here.
Does anyone have a timeline for when he started asking for the deposits on pre-orders?
TA, As usual you missed the whole point. I never claimed to know anything about the details of this situation, nor did I care. I simply made a “larger” observation about how we came this point in this hobby.
I have no dog in this fight, I never bought a thing from CMT, nor was I ever likely to.
I don’t preorder, I only did so one time, it turned out fine, but still, never again.
It’s just my view, based on my business experiance, that this business is headed in a bad direction - I’ve explained it before.
As to your suggestion that I stay quiet, I would suggest to you that this is a public forum and that the moderators and owners can be the judge of that. Considering some of the less than polite things you have said to and about me in the past, I think you are again a little out of line here.
I made no personal comments about anyone - especially about or to you.
But in any case I am headed back to the train room to actually build some model trains - as opposed to worrying about when someone in China will make some for me.
Sheldon
Sheldon,
I wasn’t meaning in any way to criticize you or call your experience/view points into question. I was simply trying to address two points:
- I do not like pre-orders that much, but I do understand the rationale (particularly for smaller businesses). I don’t necessarily think it is a bad thing for the hobby, but rather a change of direction that will require some getting used to and some adapting to. The economic realities of today are not what they were in decades past…this doesn’t just affect our hobby, it has changed the way businesses operate across all sectors (obviously not driving them all to a “pre-order model”, but things have certainly changed). Again, as much as I wish I could walk into my LHS and pick up any product I want that has ever been produced, if the pre-order “culture” actually means I can get the products I need (as a modeler of modern-era Canadian passenger operations, I think I qualify in the “niche” market), then I am willing to embrace it.
But I don’t want to pretend that I think it’s the best way to go or completely wonderful, I just accept the reality and try to look on the bright side. I don’t like the “we’re only going to run this once EVER” sort of idea, but I do think limited runs to pre-orders with future re-runs can be quite effective. Overall, I think there is a lot to be happy about with the state of the hobby, as far as I’m concerned. But I digress…
- The other point was simply
mmmmm…again…
Does anyone know when CMT started to ask for deposits on pre-orders?
[^o)]
Or, if this continues you will see Chuck Gruden face…
I just don’t see extrapolating “pre-ordering is bad” out of this situation. The facts speak to “paying a deposit for a pre-order may be bad.”
-
I deal mainly with a LHS, where I get a substantial discount, great service, and reliable pre-ordering – and never a deposit. I deal with other retailers from time to time and none of them require a deposit on a pre-order, either.
-
I do know there are some models and/or retailers that require deposits. I won’t say I’ll never do that (I have in the past for a few choice items), but I would tend to do it with a business I have a track record with, unless it was a very special situation.
-
Having been to Canada, yep, they do have police. IF deposits aren’t sorted out in a reasonable period of time in the normal course of closing this part of the business, I presume this could turn into a criminal matter, given that misleading statements seem to have been made and people who have fully paid for items that should have been delivered have not received them, even prior to the end of this part of this business. If it’s simply business, belly-up in the driving lane, then yes, merely a civil matter (and I’m not a lawyer, especially not a Canadian lawyer) and that can be very disappointing.
But whatever it is it has very little to do with 99.9% of most people’s experience with pre-ordering items. Most don’t have to put down deposits and those that do usually receive their stuff or a refund – except with this retailer apparently.
Exactly. If CMT has no intention of honouring contracts they entered into, then they must return any deposits. They were a sign of goodwill in that the buyer would pay the balance owed when the item arrived. The seller is obligated to keep track of these deposits as well.
By the same token, the buyer forfeits his deposit if he doesn’t hold up his end of the bargain. Pretty simple. This way it reduces the number of people who promise to buy something expensive and when it arrives, suddenly change their minds. The seller isn’t obligated to take the merchandise back and refund your money after delivery either.
It was before 2010 anyway when deposits were asked for.
For most limited runs that required pre-orders (here we go again!!!??), CMT would ask for a deposit of 10% down. I put that down on my order for the Canadian. CMT actually had one of the lowest deposit requirements OF the stores that required deposits for The Canadian.
The deposit requirements were started because of too many customers ordering expensive models; brass locomotives, limited runs, etc. and then never completing the purchase.
i.e.: Oh. I forgot I ordered that.
I got it somewhere else.
I don’t need it now. I changed scales.
I can’t afford it now. Cash is tight.
That’s the story behind the deposit requirement.
Steve
I ordered my first brass caboose from them in 2006 and they required a deposit back then.
Sheldon, you don’t deserve a response. [(-D]
That was what I thought…it iis pretty strange that all of a sudden it seems to not work now.
[:^)]
The problems with CMT seem to date back about a year or more. I had trouble getting ahold of them for a train show, when I finally spoke to Tom, they were all interested. After that, getting ahold of them was spotty at best, they never formally submitted their application, then they were moving and the phone system was a mess, then Tom’s wife got sick, but all along the way the word from CMT was “we’re coming”. Eventually the decision was made to strike them from the vendor list.
What was really interesting was that out of the blue another vendor, who “doesn’t do train shows anymore”, sent in their paperwork and a cheque, so we at least had a large well known vendor on the list.
Preordering still works and I’m not put off by it because of the whole CMT and Tom Tomblin fiasco. I totally understand the need for it when your talking about about low production and high end stuff. The stuff most people would never buy. I would never preorder something like a regular run CN or CP loco when I know that I will find them at train shows or my LHS.
Thats about the time I started having problems with their communication. When the CN and GO GP40 widecabs come out I phoned them up and left messages saying I wanted a few more. Nobody phoned me back about a possible 500 dollar purchase. I ended up buying them somewhere else. I thought that was weird. I remember the Ottawa show, they were coming and then they weren’t. Weird.