The new service from Seattle to Vancouver is an extension of a train that formerly originated in the morning and terminated at night in Bellingham. Does the crew now need to commute to Vancouver? I saw a schedule for the pre-Amtrak Internationals, and it appeared that the equipment and crew was based in Seattle. This would be more efficient for the railroad in terms of personnel and equipment, but less convenient for travelers.
It would be possible to have two crews based in Vancouver; each crew would make a round trip Vancouver-Seattle every other day. There is not enough time between arrival in Vancouver at night and departure the next morning for full rest; there was time when the train tied up in Bellingham.
Johnny
It would seem that the crew that arrived on the present Cascades in VAC 1135 would take the new morning trip back to SEA and the new arrival in VAC would take the afternoon trip to SEA??
Having done airline crew scheduling that is what I would do.
Blue Streak,
That’s exactly what’s happening.
Both crew ‘‘sets’’ Seattle-(interbay) based.
north on # 516 South on # 517 ( next day )
North on # 510 South on # 513 ( next day)
‘‘Hours of rest’’ structure prevents a same day turnaround.
Cheers
Claude
So both crews stay in a hotel overnight at Amtrak expense? And a train sits all day in Vancouver?
Is this the most efficient use of personnel and equipment? Whom do we serve, the customers or the infrastructure?
Crew availability is limited by labor contracts and the Hours Of Service Law. How would you propose to evade these restrictions?
I imagine it might be more efficient if there were a more frequent service between Vancouver and Seattle. Regulatory laws that protect us would prohibit any other plan you might propose.
As long as any train lays over in Vancover for more than approximately 2 hrs that crew will need to overnight in Vancover (1 hr report + 4 hr trip to VAC+ 2 hr layover + 4:20 return to SEA+ :40 possible delays return to SEA = 12:00 on duty Max hours of service>
I am certainly not proposing to evade any laws nor inconvenience Amtrak’s workers further. On the contrary, Amtrak needs more funding and support to make employees’ lives easier. Improved speed and increased frequency would not only attract more passengers, but also make it possible for some of the crews to return home every night. With such limited frequencies, the trains do not connect well with the Empire Builder or Coast Starlight. For me, the added service runs on the same schedule at Mount Vernon and still does not connect with ferries from Orcas Island or Victoria. It’s only 150 miles from Seattle to Vancouver, so a four-hour trip is pretty slow.
When we say “trains are too expensive,” there is a lot of extra expense from their being so limited in ability to service customers and employees.
Maglev I think this is preaching to the choir. Have not been to Pacific Central station since before 911. At that time even though the station is large the customs holding area was small and was used by both Canadian customs and US customs… The inbounds will need clearing before the US destination persons can enter. That and required cleaning makes any turn less than 2 hrs highly unlikely.
Improved speed and increased frequency would not only attract more passengers, but also make it possible for some of the crews to return home every night.
I know the first 5 - 8 miles in SEA is along the waterfront so a speed of 30MPH probably in force. Almost every street going to the waterfront crosses the tracks after they exit the tunnel is at grade (I-5 is above). Someone who lives in the area can elaborate on the various speed restrictions. 4 hr = 39MPH average.
Back when the Internationals provided three trips each way every day, the fastest schedule was 3:55–and the return trip started about two hours after the first two trains of the day came in. All this when 150 miles was the basic day for passenger train crews (and 100 miles was the basic day for engine crews)–and 16 hours was the maximum work day and a crewman was subject to being called for work 8 hours after he tied up.
You mention the speed restrictions north of King Street in Seattle. You who have been to Vancouver know that west of the Fraser River the line is anything but straight, and incoming trains are turned before they go on in to the station–so much time is consumed in covering the thirteen or so miles.
As to cu
Forgot about the turning and the Fraser River restrictions. Another point for the slow times
Re; Fraser river trackage: in anticipation of a 2nd RT VAC-SEA, BNSF had done its part of the deal and improved right of way quite substantially… Higher speed now permitted ( NOT ‘‘high"" speed but ‘’ higher than before’’…)
Re; turning on wye before entering depot: all SEA-VAC Talgo trains operate '‘push pull’'mode, thus this is no longer necessary. Saves a good 10-12 minutes right at the mouth of the station ( which is still CN territory…)
cheers
CG
CG and others–
Thanks for the comments. I would still like to know more about the crew situation–what is their home base? Can Amtrak hire Canadian crews? And did the Internationals’ crews do a turn-around trip the same day?
I also suggest that it is inefficient for a train to sit idle for six hours in the middle of the day
Whom do we serve, the infrastructure or the customers? I face that question at the five-building hotel where I work. When occupancy is low, should we group guests together to make it easier on the room attendants and houseboy (me)? Or is it better to give people more privacy–even though this means that service quality declines and costs increase?
Pulama!
Phil
[quote user=“Maglev”]
CG and others–
Thanks for the comments. I would still like to know more about the crew situation–what is their home base? They are based in SEA.
Can Amtrak hire Canadian crews? Not likely this is a trackage rights on BNSF except CN from Vancover Jct to the end of track at Pacific Central station. At the risk of being PC this is a train subsidized by US taxpayers and as such AMTRAK should use US operating crews The Canadian crews would be paid the same anyway and you then transfer the hotel and Layover costs from VAC to SEA.
I have not heard of any Canadian money for this operation and in fact station services (agents, cleaners, caterers car and locomotive inspectors, etc), are probably all VIA employees (or contractors) that AMTRAK pays VIA to get these services performed. The only exception is probably the station manager who is a US citizen employed by AMTRAK.
And did the Internationals’ crews do a turn-around trip the same day? Someone?
I also suggest that it is inefficient for a train to sit idle for six hours in the middle of the day.
Only if the revenue received from additional trips are more than the operating costs. If the R/OC is close then it may be inefficient. That may be especially true when operating during the Winter Olympics. Remember Canadian customs was very reluctant to allow just the second train to VAC (wanted lots of money but did not get the money). Getting track time may be a problem? When Sound transit completes their track work from Everett to SEA (very busy BNSF freight) then maybe transit times can be reduced. (now 51 min to possibily 40 min
Whom do we serve, the infrastructure or the customers?
I do not kno
I do not know for sure, but I doubt that the Internationals’ crews made a turn-around trip the same day. Consider the fact that at that time, 150 miles was the basic day for passenger train crews, and 100 miles was the basic day for all engine crews. Thus, a one way trip constituted a trifle more than one day’s work for the train crew, and a little more than a day and a half’s work for the engine crew. It may be that the crews of the morning trains came back the same day, and the train crews then had a day off the next day, and the engine crews had two days off before going out again. Or the crews of the mid-day trains came back the same day and then had the same time off. The train crews of the third schedule would then work every day–out one day, and back the next. The engine crews may have worked two days out of three, since they received a day and a half’s pay for each trip. And, every crews may have made only one trip a day.
Each road had its agreements with the unions. The main passenger line of the IC’s Louisiana Division had two subs–Canton to Mc Comb (crew base) and McComb to New Orleans, and each sub was approximately 100 miles long (the north end of the freight line, McComb to Gwin, was about 130 miles long, and engine and train crews preferred being called to go north). Each engine crew ran the length of the sub, and the day was done. Passenger train crews would go out on their trains one day–and come back home, on the same train, 24 hours later and they would then be home for 24 hours, giving them 400 miles every other day. Except for the City of New Orleans, the crews changed out southbound. The Panama’s crews worked the Panama only, the City’s crews worked the City only. The southbound Louisiane’s crews took the Creole north
Regarding the track north of Everett, I think it is double track as far as Mount Vernon. The southbound train stops here just before the northbound train in the morning and evening. Track quality is also an issue north of Mount Vernon.
The “150 mile limit” for crews seems odd, even in the old days. Did trains use nine crews on the way from New York to Florida, or three crews between Boston and Washington?
We
Well the FEC used three. JAX - New Smyrna Beach; NSB - Ft. Pierce; FT P - MIA
Must have ridden the Internationals at least twenty times per year round trip from Seattle to visit grandparents in Vancouver for a period of eight years. The family left the car a King St. Station and boarded the last International of the day on Friday and after arrival in Vancouver picked up car left by grandfather at Great Northern Station in Vancouver. We always returned on the afternoon International on Sunday unless it was holiday weekend. We got to know all of the regular crew members. I may be wrong but I beleive all crew were based out of Seattle there were no Canadian crew on the Internationals. It was always different crews going then on the return which would leave me to believe that evening crew to Vancouver became the next morning International crew back to Seattle. I don’t know but I would think the Morning International crew from Seattle would be the returning Afternoon International crew from Vancouver. The same with the Afternoon International crew from Seattle would be the evening International crew out of Vancouver. When service was cut to two Internationals that would have eliminated some crews or they bid elsewhere. I also remember the Seattle based crews for the GN Cascadian operated traveled from Seattle to Spokane then laid over and returned the next day These were the onboard crews not Engineers, Conductors and Brakemen. I have no idea how they worked. The Internationals required 4 hours to go from Seattle to Vancouver. The GN Cascadians required eight hours to go from Seattle to Spokane if I remember correctly.
Al - in - Stockton
My experiences riding the NE Corridor:
When I rode the Turbotrain from Back Bay to Grand Central (about 156 228 miles) in September of 1969, the engine crew changed in New Haven (about 156 miles) (I sat behind the fireman all the way); I do not know if the train crew changed or not. This gave the engine crew a day and a half’s pay east of New Haven–and would have given the train crew a little over one day’s pay. Then, again, the union agreement may have been that, even though it was a little over the basic day, it constituted one day’s work. (In 1964, I rode the overnight train from Atlanta to Nashville; as we were going into Nashville, the conductor told me that the Atlanta-Chattanooga train crew was paid for a full day’s work for the 133.7 miles, and he received only one day’s pay for his 151.5 miles.) Since the engines were changed in New Haven (unless an FL-9 took the train all the way), the engine crews on the other trains changed there. Whether or not an engine crew received a full day’s pay for the seventy plus miles between New York and New Haven, or they made a return trip in their work day and thus received about a day and a half’s pay, I do not know.
Going to Boston on that same trip, I rode from Penn Station to South Station. I may have been given a hat check to show the New Haven conductor that I was going all the way; I do not remember.
On my other trips between New York and Boston, I rode first class, so I was not bothered between New York and Boston, and so I have no sure knowledge.
In April of 1970, I rode the Metroliner from Washington to New York, standing in the front vestibule most of the way, and did not notice any engine