Just wondering if the railways took to using cement ties on a large scale[?] I’ve only seen cement ties once, that being in Burnaby, B.C. at the Willingdon Overpass where there is a heavy volume of freight traffic entering a tunnel to North Vancouver. Do cement ties have any advantages over wooden ties[?]
Longer life expectancy
Less needed per given distance
More rigid track structure.
Oh Mudchicken…
We discussed that a while back here, but I didn’t find it on a search. Maybe I didn’t phrase the search right - perhaps someone else can find it.
Both have their advantages and disadvantages. For instance, wood tends to withstand simple derailments better (the concrete often cracks, rendering the tie useless, while the wood simply ends up with a mark). While concrete can deteriorate, it’s perhaps a little less likely to do so than wood. I forget the cost comparison.
CP has a lot of cement ties around the mountains now, most of the grade reduction projects have them on the reduced grade lines I think. The Lake Louise grade reduction has concrete ties on it, but outside of that, CP prefers wood ties for now.
Concrete (to use the proper term) ties are getting more and more common. They are somewhat more expensive than wooden ones, but the difference is dropping – and they seem to have a lot less maintenance, which more than makes up for the difference. They do seem to be having a little wear problem on very high tonnage track, but then – wooden ties in the same setting would be pretty near hopeless.
You see them all over the place these days.
Many railroads have used and are using concrete ties in vaarious applications. Amtrak has a lot of the NE Corridor redone with concrete when they go through with one of the track renewal trains. UP also uses them in many places.
Comparison of some features versus wood tie track built on a similar track bed–
Some advantages: Stiffer track, holds surface and line better than wood, lower frequency of surfacing cycles needed compared to wood, fastening system (clips versus spikes) easier to mechanize and more dependable, potentially lower life time costs but haven’t been in track long enough yet to really know for sure (less than 30 or so years)
Some disadvantages: Unforgiving, minor derailments can mean large out of face replacement of ties, will pound out soft spots and pump mud quicker since the track is stiffer is transfers imapcts into the road bed at a higher level, higher initail installation cost, means a change in technology in how to do repair work, will accentuate truck hunting
Just a few things to consider. With either concrete or wood, you end up with a set of issues that need to be respected and accounted for in running trains and maintaining the track. Pick the issue you prefer to live with.
Newer fiber plastic ties made from recycled plastics may combine the advantages of both but there is not enough experience to prove the point yet.
But I still hope someone will try a continuously supported rail tracj structure as per my posting on other threads, including the one on increasing rail weight.
Any idea timeframe-wise when they started in service (introduced and/or widespread popularity)?
Concrete ties have always worried me, when it gets hot or rail is run on alot, the rails give a wee bit. With the wooden ties they give a bit too so it seems safer and it is a much better ride than the clunk, clunk concrete ties.[banghead]
Here are some past threads:
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=50376&REPLY_ID=554541#554541
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=1&TOPIC_ID=46751
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=48109&REPLY_ID=523850#523850
Union Pacific has a bunch of concrete ties on the Blue Mountains and they seem to like the performance so far and I watched BNSF lay concrete ties on the old SP &S Columbia River division. I have not been back to check on them at all
Lived in Reno for 8 years and have hiked every step of the Union Pacific tracks from Roseville, CA to Lovelock, NV. One of the earliest uses of concrete ties is the section from the east portal of track #2 two mile Summit Tunnel at Donner Pass to the last remaining snowshead (left there to cover switch for single track to double track) just above Donner Lake. They have been there nearly a decade and have held up quite well. Never see them used in tunnels. However have seen steel ties in tunnels.
I hope that wood ties will never completely vanish from the railroads. I love the look and smell of wooden ties. Railroad track technology is one of the few things in life that has changed very little in the past 150 years.
WHOA!
STEEL TIES IN TUNNELS?
what does this do to the signaling circuits?
And if steel ties are really used, what kind of insulation can take the pounding of train weights?
As mentioned in another topic, when BNSF did their major MOW blitz on the Thayer Sub in Missouri and Arkansas a few years back they laid miles of welded rail on concrete ties on that line and still appear to be replacing wood with concrete… Some time in the last year there was a dust-up over concrete ties in the Northeast involving Metro and AMTRAK and problems with non performance of a pretty large number of ties laid and breaking in service in those areras. It revolved around the product of one major supplier of concrete cross ties in the Northeast.
Apparently UP and BNSF have placed some sizeable orders for various kinds of composite ties, buit have not read anything more about that.
San
I had, in fact, noticed that Amtrak-used lines in the Northeast used increasing numbers of concrete ties. I always had understood that this was a necessary improvement to allow for high-speed service. Yet, no mention of that here. Am I wrong?
Steel ties in tunnels use an insulated gage pad and clip pads that unfortunately degrade too fast to be effective in signal territory.
Concrete ties transmit shock loading directly to the subgrade causing subgrades to fail much faster than with wood ties.
Wood ties will always be around. There is an uper limit on the availability of raw material and the environmental issues with the preservatives used.
Plastic and composite ties have durability issues…And then there were the Cedrite ties that broke before insertion and only could be used in constant compression (no tension)…
Chad: Is that you calling from the lower lefthand corner near the Harmon Home For The Bewildered and Hopelessly Confused? …Anyone seen him lately? or is his he loosed on the world’s oceans again in an industrial size capsized steam iron?
[:D][:D][:D]
On our small 3/4 mile 15" gauge grand scale railroad I have all welded steel ties … some in place for over 10 years now … 30 foot sections … 1/4 - 1/2 inch space for expansion and contraction … with splice bars with oval holes to also allow for changes too … no track signaling of course … is nice … not one broken weld and not one mm of track out of gauge … I have friends that have to replace most wood ties in this length of time with constant gandy dancing and gauge and track repair … and ours is exceeding smooth ride …
I see some steel ties are used on the big boys now too in places … interesting …
Wooden ties are “out” in Europe , High speed lines, normal service , and light rail …new track being all concrete . Must have less hassle longer life and strangely enough quieter run … Recent new light rail passenger service between the city’s Enschede (NL) and Munster (D) As been a lot of complaints about noise , for nearby residential areas . Much quieter on concrete .
In my part of the world (Australia) concrete ties are used extensively. We do not have a suitable softwood that can be creosoted to resist the termites. Our ties were mostly hardwood which wasn’t as tasty to the termites but we have cut most of that out. For the latest major rail construction from Alice Springs to Darwin two concrete ties plants were set up at the construction bases to supply the approximately 1000 mile of track. Each base laid a mile of track (ties, rail and ballast) a day then ran over it the next day to lay the next mile. The track is continuous welded rail (CWR) from end to end with no breaks anywhere. The mass of the ties and good ballast shoulders keep it there through the extremes of temperature.