Chatsworth Accident Details Kept Hidden

Trains Magazine General Discussion
1

I find it frustrating that there is yet to appear no diagram to scale showing the location of the Chatsworth collision, signal towers, switches, station, etc.

There is also no information given on what safety and signal equipment was implemented trackside or in the respective locomotive cabs.

No information yet on what kind of CTC was in operation and what alarms were sounded when the Metrolink train passed a red and drove through the points onto the single track porition of the line.

No photo of the signal tower the Metrolink train apparently passed on a stop/red. It would be interesting to know what kind of signal it is, how many heads are displayed and how many lamps are in each head.

All of the above should have become available by this time. Instead, it seems it is being kept under wraps. One shouldn’t have to wait a year or more to learn any of these facts now.

2

It’s only been a few days… I don’t think anyone is keeping it hidden either. The NSTB takes a while to prepare their report, so don’t expect them to say much until they’ve drawn up a conclusion.

3

Based on what I’ve seen and read so far, they still have a lot of ground to cover. I’m not implying that illegal substances were used when I point out that toxicology reports take time, too. In a situation such as this, discretion is the better part of valor. When all the facts are in, they’ll talk.

This isn’t like a crime investigation where they let stuff slip hoping the bad guy will bite on it or someone will put two and two together and blow someone in.

4

On the railfan website Trainorders.com there have been diagrams posted, pictures of the wreckage and the recovery operation, and photographs of the signal involved, taken not within the last few days, but since the siding was extended showing the current setup. There are multiple threads, some with more than 100 postings so it can take a bit of effort to find the diagrams and photos being discussed, also some are on the Western board and some are on the Passenger Board. You can look at the first page of any discussion without being a member, and should be able to see the diagrams, but you can only see thumbnails of the photgraphs.

5

Let’s see if I have this straight…

After 25 plus deaths, millions of dollars of damage, all the pain and suffering these people have gone through, you are “frustrated” that the NTSB and other agencies haven’t given you enough information and photographs to play “what if” with?

So what would make you happy, a few photos of the engineers corpse, burned and crushed…maybe a few close-ups of the crash post in the Metro locomotive bent backwards…maybe a photo of all the body bags stacked up in the morgue, so you can have a real accurate body count?

What do you need all the info for?

So you can recreate the wreck with your model trains, and maybe solve the “mystery” of what happened before the NTSB does?

Here is a clue…the Metro Link engineer ran a red signal…people died…isn’t that enough to amuse you and relieve your frustration?

Here is another clue…I would bet the NTSB, the FRA, Metrolink and UP, along with the engineers widow and kids, and all the survivors, right about now could really care less if you are frustrated.

Here is what is really frustrating…the bodies haven’t even been released, are barely cold, and a bunch of morbid people start whining that they haven’t been given all the details they feel they are entitled to, simply to satisfy their curiosity and “frustration”.

Not trying to pick on you personally, but folks need to find another hobby besides trying to second guess the “why” behind people’s deaths…

[quote user=“rjemery”]

I find it frustrating that there is yet to appear no diagram to scale showing the location of the Chatsworth collision, signal towers, switches, station, etc.

There is also no information given on what safety and signal equipment was implemented trackside or in the respective locomotive cabs.

No information yet on what kind of CTC was in operation and what ala

6

If you have access to Google Earth, the photograph shows the current arrangement. Turn on the street names overlay.

Plug “Heather Lee Lane, Chatsworth, CA” into the search box. The clearly visible curve in the tracks slightly NE of that street is the site of the collision. Follow the tracks to the south and if you zoom in you can clearly see the switch at CP Topanga. The Intermediate Signal of the siding is on the south side of the grade crossing at Lassen Street, and the station parking lot is on the east side of the tracks immediately north of Lassen Street, with the station building about a block and a half to the north. The Eastern most track is the mainline. CP Bernsen the other end of the siding is clearly visible just west of the DeSoto Avenue grade crossing.

The signal type used is a Union Switch & Signal TR-2 type favored by the SP. Other users of this signal were the Rock Island and New York Central.

Signal picture

Except wi

7

It is difficult for me to accept that a rational, responsible and professional engineer would deliberately run through a red signal. Even if he did so by accident, as soon as he pushed through the points with the resulting jarring, he would have had to known something was amiss. Were there no cab indicators to show the condition of the last signal? No alarms going off in the cab to indicate a stop signal was passed?

I am convinced by the time the stop signal was passed, the engineer was already in some way incapacitated. If so, why did not the dead man’s control activate?

Was this a freight line never properly upgraded to handle (Metrolink and Amtrak) passenger traffic?

Enough information should have already been determined and made available to narrow the possibilities. Meanwhile, state and federal legislators are moving with lightning speed to mandate the spending of billions on safety improvements that may neither be necessary or may prove counterproductive.

8

Why? It is not like you are a member of the NTSB investigating the crash.

Call me cynical, but I am almost willing to bet you have never run through a switch or been in a 3000HP (or more) locomotive as it accelerates from a stop. If so, then you really have no idea what the engineer would have felt or heard as he ran through that switch, you are just assuming, which may not be anywhere near accurate.

I think this has been discussed in other threads.

Appearently the line can handle freight and passenger trains since it has been doing so since it was built, with few accidents. Also, the FRA has not put a stop to freight or passenger trains.

9

I realize that you’re upset. Everybody is upset by this. But just chill.

The investigation will determine what happened and it will be properly reported and made available when complete. The politicians will do their ususal grandstanding - they always do.

In the mean time, it has been pretty well esablished that the engineer of the Metrolink train ran through restricting signals and through a switch that was set against him. We don’t know why he would do this and maybe the investigation will say otherwise.

In the meantime, you can’t conduct your own investigation and draw your own conclusions.

I heard “The Rule Book Is Written In Blood” early on. There will be changes because of this. The changes will improve safety, just like the changes from previous wrecks have done. But total safety is impossible in anything. People die in bathtubs. And in Space Shutt

10

To put this in perspective take a look at the 3rd Quarter 2008 report on SPADs for the UK (England, Scotland, Wales) they had 79 SPADS (Signal Passed At Danger) (Passed a Red Signal) in a 3 month period. No disasters occurred but three of the occurrances were judged as dangerous.

UK SPAD Report

I doubt he was incapacitated. Read this story by Al Krug, a very experienced BNSF Engineer. It concerns a freight Engineer, but some things apply to all.

Engineer Mindset

There are thousands of miles of track equipped like this with passenger trains operating over them daily. Some lines have even simplier systems.

11

For a good look at what happened see this YouTube video.

it shows a train traveling the crash area from Chatworth station to way past tunnels.

the crash actually happened 25 seconds past the signal wherethe 3 containers sit at right hand side.

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=CNuzZI-7h4U&feature=related

Now run it again and see where train was 1 minute before impact, where alleged text messaging took place.

12

im not going to add my speculation to any causes other then the odviouse… the engineer missed a signal or forgot what the last signal he passed was… it was human error plan and simple…

dead man peddles are a thing of the past…they no longer exist on new power and have just been phased out of all old power… the new alerter systems are much better and cant be jammed with a flag stick…

running thorugh a switch will not do anything to the locomotive as far as a feel or even any extra noise to know you ran thourgh a switch that wasnt lined for you…

after watching the youtube video that was posted…even IF the engineer would have had some kind of warning that he just ran a red signal…he wouldnt have had much time to react… the freigth train wouldnt have been able to stop in time…and neither would he… there still would have been a wreck regardless… it just happend to at a point where the trains where just to close to warn them to stop i

13

The LA Times, on Sunday or Monday, had a very good map of the rails from where they begin a turn from west to north near De Soto Street; to where the siding starts just past De Soto; to where the station is located on the N-S section of track; to where the siding ends a mile or so north of the station; to where the curve to the west and the tunnel begins. All the local streets were shown, as was the position of all the signals. Notations showed which way the various signals were oriented (mostly in both directions). It looked, to me, like a pretty good depiction of what I believe a CTC signal array would look like.

It clarified a lot of things and, after seeing that, it is pretty hard to believe in any cause other than driver error or signal failure.

Jack

14

Thanks for the reference. That video is very instructive, especially if the speed at which it plays also replicates a 40+ mph speed. However, it begins at the crucial signal guarding the switch. The time one minute before impact occurs before this video begins.

I don’t believe the text messaging claim. From other cab ride observations, I don’t see how the engineer could drive the train and be text messaging at the same time.

15

Still, if he was trying to do both at the same time (which, I admit, is yet to be established), I think that answers the riddle how to do both at once-he couldn’t.

16

Jack,

I have been searching the LA Times website for just such a diagram. While I have found some maps, the one of which you write I was not able to locate.

While signal malfunction is still a possibility, human error of some kind is the more likely cause. Still, it just doesn’t add up.

It remains to be seen what the black box recorders on the locomotives will reveal. One key question is at what speed was the Metrolink train traveling through the approach signal(s) before it blew through the stop signal? Although the NTSB may already have that answer, it will be many months before the public is informed.

17

On my cell phone, text messaging is a two handed operation. Where was the dead man’s control located? Was it hand or foot operated? There was no need for the engineer to keep his hand on the throttle once the desired speed was reached? He didn’t need to keep his hands on anything to keep the train moving?

It is for those reasons that I do not accept the text messaging theory. Even if he had a cell phone on him, perhaps he did text message when the train was stopped at the Chatsworth station, but unlikely afterwards when the train was in motion.

If he was text messaging and took his hands off the controls, it would have had to been the most reckless action of all time by any engineer anywhere. Which is why I assign a very low probability to this explanation as an outcome.

18

[quote user=“edblysard”]

Let’s see if I have this straight…

After 25 plus deaths, millions of dollars of damage, all the pain and suffering these people have gone through, you are “frustrated” that the NTSB and other agencies haven’t given you enough information and photographs to play “what if” with?

So what would make you happy, a few photos of the engineers corpse, burned and crushed…maybe a few close-ups of the crash post in the Metro locomotive bent backwards…maybe a photo of all the body bags stacked up in the morgue, so you can have a real accurate body count?

What do you need all the info for?

So you can recreate the wreck with your model trains, and maybe solve the “mystery” of what happened before the NTSB does?

Here is a clue…the Metrolink engineer ran a red signal…people died…isn’t that enough to amuse you and relieve your frustration?

Here is another clue…I would bet the NTSB, the FRA, Metrolink and UP, along with the engineers widow and kids, and all the survivors,

19

As was said: when the facts are in they’ll be released. Other than that, what legitimate need to know details do you have?

20

It occurs to me that this is a request typical of the “right now” generation - used to getting instant results/gratification…