Do you have any idea where I could see that? I don’t suppose it is on YouTube or something? That would be a very interesting sight.
Gabe
A few comments:
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I am surprized UP runs the intermodals thru Pana instead of avoiding St. Louis. Do the intermodals pickup blocks of containers/pigs at St Louis for the destinations? If so, is that accomplished in EStL? Are there any dedicated UP intermodals originating out of StL?
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How busy is the BNSF line thru Litchfield area? Is it mainly the PRB coal trains? I have seen a local switching at ACH in Jacksonville…they receive corn syrup in tankers.
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Was Mattoon a crew change for NYC back in the day? Years ago I stumbled onto a small yard/terminal on the east side of Mattoon. Parked on a track were 2 F’s and a GP unit. No one was around.
ed
I do not have the precision of an answer as provided by Nordique. However, it is very busy. I know the Wabash line, in normal ecnomic times, gets between 16 and 22 trains a day. I seem far more likely to see a BNSF train in Litchfield than an NS/Wabash train–although BNSF’s siding there probably makes it seem more busy. Although more than half of the trains I see on the BNSF there are PRB coal, there is still a good assortment of manifest and unit grain trains.
Watching the NS/BNSF diamond at Walton Park in Litchfield is a lot of fun.
Gabe
Ed,
In those days the three intermodals all made pick-ups and setouts at Dupo- UP’s ex-Mopac yard and intermodal ramp on the south side of East St. Louis. I know that the ZYCHO still runs the Pana Sub. to make it’s St. Louis pickup- as does it’s counterpart. I’m not sure if the other two ever do anymore- I think it all depends on if they have cars to pick up at Dupo. I know Dupo does originate at least a couple long distance intermodals- one to Seattle and another to Oakland.
As for the BN- I’d expect you could see anywhere from 12-20 trains a day on the line to Metropolis if you hung around it long enough- south of Toland though you can cut that number in half. Most of what runs further south is coal bound for barges on the Ohio River and power plants down south. I don’t know if there are any active mines on the BNSF’s line down there anymore or not.
As for the NYC- Mattoon was their crew change point in Eastern Illinois, they had a yard and terminal there (which echoed that of the NKP in nearby Charleston). Mattoon most likely had a local that handled local service and interchanges with nearby railroads.
Gabe-
The films I saw of the Amtrak and Conrail detours on the old NYC through Mattoon were way way long ago at a railroad meet I attended in the early 90s in Tuscola. There was an older gentleman there that gave a presentation on the NYC in eastern Illinois. He also had a fantastic 8mm film of the Southwestern Limited leaving Shelbyville- I think my dad bought a VHS copy of the tape, but I don’t know if he still has it anymore or not. Definately a memorable presentation if you ask me!
(By the way- the interlocking in Litchfield was called Winston. In it’s heyday there you could see the IC, Wabash, L&M, CBQ, NYC and IT- imagine that for train watching!)
Whether you liked the C&EI or not, it was an interesting and busy line as I remember on trips north on 121 at Villa Grove and over at my grandma’s and uncle’s along the line in North Terre Haute In.
As far as Villa Grove, I don’t think I’ve ever been through there when we didn’t get caught by a train or atleast was one waiting for clearance. The round house an a couple other building are still there or were 2 years ago. I can remember when the turntable, coaling tower, waterspout and other building were still there.
The Villa Grove- Danville line is gone from Broadlands east. The depot is still standing in Westville as a museum, along with a caboose. Danville still has a few building saved.
Findley was the opposite for trains; it was rare for us to get caught there. A few years ago the UP, rebuilt the line from Pana-Findley and on north. They installed new switches and heaters at the Findley Y.
Pana is about the same for seeing trains, rare. As nordique72 said the tower is still there along with another building [IC] of the same building style. There’s also an old building along the C&EI that’s is in need of real repair. I think it may have been a depot.
As far as traffic it was mostly auto racks [before the downturn] n mixed freight we’d on the line any more.
Terre Haute is still a busy line with 30 trains a day or so I hear. The yard on the south side is still used by CSX. The building where Tony Hulman [Indy 500 track owner] keep his private car is still standing. I think INRD inter-changes there sometimes off the Springhill junction.
inch
Nordique:
What happens at Toland to cut the number of trains by 50% for BNSF? Do they run St. Louis traffic via the UP at that point?
ed
I don’t believe the Mop/L&N take over of the C&EI hurt the IC very much. I was never made aware of significant traffic losses after I joined the iCG in 1976. The C&EI routings with both carriers were well established before the takeover. The C&EI was their principal entrance to Chicago. It wasn’t like someone built a new railroad.
The IC/ICG and the MoP were active competitors for the Louisiana chemical traffic generated between Baton Rouge and New Orleans. Neither road would willingly interline this business with the other if their was an alternative. (such as the C&EI) Either road would have back solicited traffic from the other in a heart beat if they knew the volume, rate and routing.
For the IC/ICG to work with the L&N would have required one or the other to short haul itself. The IC wanted traffic to/from the south over Birmingham. The L&N wanted it over Evansville. Again, the presence of an alternative, the C&EI, allowed the L&N to get its long haul prior to the takeover of the C&EI.
The merger that really hurt the IC was the Southern’s takeover of the Central of Georgia. This diminshed the Birmingham gateway and shut off a lot of traffic to/from the growing deep South to the IC.
Greyhound:
So, was there little interchange with the MoPac in St. Louis prior to their merger with C&EI? By 1976 the traffic patterns had probably shifted for quite sometime (remember that MoPac owned a good chunk of C&EI stock in the 60’s).
ed
Ed,
Yes- Toland (Walsh on the UP) is the spot that the BNSF’s St. Louis bound trains get on the UP Pana Sub. for their trip to St. Louis.
I don’t know about the 60’s Ed, I was in high school trying to figure out what I could do to impress Darla. Nothing worked. And I did some really stupid things trying.
I doubt that the IC was ever a major connection at St. Louis for the MoP. All the IC had to offer the MoP was Chicago and any shipper who routed a carload shipment through Chicago AND St. Louis was looking for some kind of “aging in transit” on his commodity.
St. Louis made Chicago look good with respect to speed and reliability through the gateway. “TRRA” was literally a four letter word to shippers. It didn’t help much to stay on the east side of the river. Our major connection at St. Louis was the SSW and that only worked beause we set up a Markham-Pine Bluff run through. (The SP kept stealing our locomotives. We’d give 'em 3 SD-40s southbound. They’d give us a train without power northbound and use our locomotives in Texas.) If a shipper could bypass St. Louis, they generally would.
The C&EI had a line that got the MoP traffic into Chicago while bypassing the St. Louis mess. The MoP would have had to give up some $$ on the division, but they saved a lot of expense by not going through St. Louis. Just about any origin/distination other than Chicago pretty much had a direct connection out of St. Louis that didn’t involve the IC.
There were a lot of choices north from St. Louis if a shipper didn’t want the C&EI to Chicago for some reason. CB&Q, C&NW, GM&O, Wabash. For some shippers it probably depended on whoes salesman took 'em out to lunch
Hello:
I found this thread while researching the C&EI/MoPac line from Cypress to Thebes, IL…I have a couple of questions about it if someone is would be so kind:
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Does anyone have any idea as to what kind of traffic would have been traversing this line around 1978? MoPac had pretty much downgraded it by that time…and I’m guessing local traffic only…or just a few cars here and there from the BN at Chaffee, MO?
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I seem to remember the line being deactivated in 1983 or so…I’m doing a little research in preparation for a model of that part of the MoPac/ex-C&EI to come after retirement.
Thanks.
Gabe:
It is a Shame he’s deceased, BUT Boxcar Willie [angel]would have been a great one to sing them!
IMHO[:-^]
I believe the C&EI was part of the Frisco family for a while many decades ago.
Soon after WWII, there was a proposal to merge the MKT, CGW, and C&EI, but nothing came of it. Does anyone here know any more about the proposal?
Bear
Cairo was a much larger town in those days. Traditionally a railroad town, but not much of one anymore. I recall in the early 60’s, there was usually a MoPac Geep and caboose working the small industries around downtown Cairo. The IC and GM&O operated thru trains, and the tracks were on the approach to the Ohio River Bridge. To get to downtown Cairo, there was a long lead off the IC main near the passenger station several miles north.
I never was aware of the IC or GM&O running any locals or such into Cairo off the mainline. The MoPac seemed to have most of the local switching duties. Whether they went up to Thebes, I don’t know. If it was like most of the many branches in this area, there were small agricultural and lumber business’ along the route, that required weekly (maybe even less) service.
The IC had numerous branches like this in this area. Reevesville-Rosiclare IL, off the Edgewood Cutoff. Metropolis to Brookport IL where there was a former ferry across the Ohio to Paducah. Same with the C&EI to Joppa. These lines physically existed until the early 80’s, but one would be hard pressed to have spotted a train on them in the preceding 25 years. Probably the most noticable was the NYC line into Cairo from Danville IL. I don’t think there was a train on it south of Harrisburg IL since about 1965. In the 70’s,when AEPX and the TVA wanted barge tranfers on the Ohio and Tennessee Rivers for PRB coal, the C&EI Joppa line, the NYC, and CB&Q lines, were all in disrepair. The BN had the PRB coal and the CB&Q, so that line got the upgrade. MoPac owned the C&EI and the UP wasn’t yet in the picture.
Cairo got a grain/barge facility northeast of town in the late 80’s. The NS briefly considered buying the NYC line from Conrail to service it, but eventually deemed it not doable. IC built a connector off their main onto a portion
Sticking to the C&EI subject, I can provide some current and also past info about the line through southern Illinois.
Current: Within the last couple of years the Mt. Vernon-Chester line has been rehabilitated and is being used along with the Benton-Gorham line to move Texas-Chicago freight .
Past: Having spent much of my youth in West Frankfort, IL I witnessed tremendous amounts of coal being pulled out of a couple of remaining mines by the C&EI and several other roads. The largest shaft mine (New Orient) in the world was adjacent to the C&EI yard in West Frankfort. More coal was also coming out of the Johnston City area. This traffic barely lasted through the 1960’s.
Railray:
Thanks for the update and welcome to the forum.
So, is UP using the MtVernon - Chester and the Gorham - Benton lines for directional running ( like one way streets)?
Prior to the upgrading, what was the status and usage of the Mt. Vernon - Chester line? Was it a secondary line, or used for locals, possibly coal?
About how many trains does UP run on the ex C&EI south of Salem these days?
BTW, I grew up in Southern Illinois, not quite as far south as you and we would play the Class AA Basketball regionals in West Frankfort. Coach Rich Herrin at Benton had some pretty good teams, his brother Ron was my h/s coach at Olney.
ed
Hello ed and thanks for the welcome.
As for the condition of the Mt. Vernon-Chester line in pre-rehab days, it was in fairly good shape on the Mt. Vernon end as long as the Rend Lake area coal mines were operating. On further West the line was pretty well neglected and in pre-Staggers Act condition (old passing tracks & sidings still in place.) The traffic would have been all coal.
I cannot estimate the volume of freight traffic since I now live East of these lines. I do occasionally get over that way, and recently was stopped at a crossing in Mt. Vernon by a Northbound train off the Chester line. I’ve been in Benton earlier this summer and also heard the sound of a Northbound UP.
You may interested to know that the UP has also rehabed the old C&EI line from Benton South througn West Frankfort, Johnson City & Marion down to the junction with BNSF (old CB&Q) near Lake of Egypt (follow IL highway 37 on a map.) This line now hosts heavy Western coal traffic. -Railray
In late 1973 or during 1974, the western portion of MoPac’s Pinckneyville Subdivision (linking Mt. Vernon and Chester, Ill.) underwent a very significant installation of heavy welded rail, extensive crosstie work, and the company spread a lot of ballast. Although it was dark railroad, i.e., no block signals, as many as six trains would be running on that branchline - most of them hauling coal. Union Electric at West Labadie, Mo. (located about 43-miles west of Saint Louis) bought a lot of coal from the network of mines served by that section of railroad.
During that same period, C.& E.I. enjoyed a respectable amount of northbound coal traffic that originated from mines south of Mount Vernon.
As for Chicago/Texas trains using the Pinckneyville Subdivision, I’m not so sure. How this line ties into the C.& E.I. at Mt. Vernon favors the move, but I don’t think it does at Chester. Has Union Pacific built a connection at Chester that would allow northbound Chester Subdivision trains to smoothly transition northbound onto the Pinckneyville Sub.?
Recently I’ve read where The Cotton Belt did at one time consider buying the C.& E.I., but parent Espee’s Vice President of Traffic strongly objected. The VP’s campaign against the idea was centered on the notion that Cotton Belt’s eastern connections would be offended a
“Because of grossly inferior track conditions between Pana Jct. and East Saint Louis, at one point MoPac approached Penn Central about MoPac’s rehabilitating the line in exchange for MoPac’s control of the train dispatching operation. I’m not sure what happened there - did Penn Central agree to this, or was that an issue that was ultimately settled with Conrail? But, whatever, MoPac did eventually get control of the line, lock, stock and barrel. So what was once the high-speed New York Central mainline that almost collapsed under a tsunami of 10-mph slow orders, came back to life as a 60-mph freight main today.”
Bob,
It wasn’t until 1979 that Conrail transferred ownership of the ex-NYC from Pana to East St. Louis to the MoPac. (Which coincided with Conrail’s abandonment of the line from Pana to Paris) During the next three years the MoPac heavily rebuilt the line with new ties and welded rail. I can remember when I was a kid, while my dad and I were out railfanning the Pana Sub one morning he pointed out to me the rail dated 1982- to me it was always a strange thing to see blue MoPac units and yellow UP units flying along on the outskirts of Edwardsville pass over the old highway 143 overpass marked “NEW YORK CENTRAL”…