How did they have that train about 500ft to 1000ft go right behind the first train on the same track?
Here’s the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dVhcnAwGcw
The second train appears to be moving at Restricted Speed – able to stop in 1/2 the limit of vision, but not greater than 20 mph (on UP). The dispatcher has either made the second train joint with the first with Track & Time if this is CTC territory, and authorized it to pass an absolute signal displaying a stop indication. Or, he’s made it joint with the first with Work & Time if this is TWC territory. This is covered in the operating rules and is a common practice, used to bring a train up behind a first train that has stopped or is delayed for any reason, both preceeding in the same direction. The dispatcher has to inform the first train that he’s authorized a second train to enter the first train’s authorized limits behind him.
CTC = Centralized Traffic Control
TWC = Track Warrant Control
RWM
Very Carefully! The second train has authority from dispatch to occupy track immediately to the rear of the first train and operate under “restricted” speed rules. As long as the engineer can stop the second train in half the distance to the first train he is complying with the rules.
I was wondering how the authority grant was handled.
If it’s CTC they could still be running on signal indication if the signals were intermediates. Restricted speed would still be the speed they would be running at.
I can do up to 20mph if I want to but why, when the key phrase is to be able stop within half my range of vision, in ctc and the signal is a absolute the ds can flag a train in the same limits with another.
Rodney
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Another possibility is that both trains are on a siding instead of on the main. On a siding they are allowed to approach within stopping distance.
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I am sure you are making this too complicated.
The first train left without all its cars. 2nd is trying to catch up to connect. Result - mid helpers! [^]
( Been on here too long. Starting to sound like Zardoz!)
Could you explain that a little more? What’s the difference between a siding and a main? Restricted speed is restricted speed and the track that restricted speed is being run upon has no bearing on the rule, nor the consequences if something unfavorable happens.
I have seen that countless times on the IHB over here over the years, and recently have seen the same thing on the BNSF a couple of times. I figure the dispatcher knows what he is doing, so I have never questioned it, but it does look odd to see two trains, one right behind the other on the same track.
I agree with traisessive 1. If they are in CTC, the only action of the dispatcher may have been to give both trains a signal at the last controlled signal. That could have been 10 miles back, so now they are running on signal indications. At that controlled signal the two trains could’ve been far enough apart that the second train had a clear (green) signal. Then they bunched up for some reason. Happens all the time, although usually the first train is already stopped and the second pulls up behind it. Possibly traffic is starting to move ahead and the first train just started to pull.
Jeff
It actually appears as a siding move as both trains are at very restricted speed and under control.
I do recall an old timer…at least now we would call him one…who told me that before coming an RFE, his fellow engineers would often run track speed on marker sight and with radio contact on double track with automatic block signals. So the lead train would be doing say, 50mph, the second train would do the same no matter what the signals said as long as he could see the markers ahead or didn’t get radio warning from engineer ahead…did up to an approximate 80 mile segment that way. He says.
I agree this is plausible. We don’t know where the wayside signals are located (and for all we know this is 9.13 territory). I ran following trains in this manner when I was on a desk every day. The following train would then be running on a red ABS stop-and-proceed, unless it has a G plate or grade signal, in which case he could ignore the stop, and continue to proceed at restricted speed.
RWM
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Further explanation of my comment:
The BNSF line near here is under track warrant control. I have never heard or seen them allow two trains joint occupation of a section of track. They frequently allow the track inspector and/or work crews joint occupancy “behind BNSF xxxx.” But not two trains.
OTOH, they often send two trains into the same siding one after the other so that both trains are occupying the siding at the same time, (obviously) after verifying that the lengths of the trains will fit into the siding. They don’t seem to give any special instructions, but by the conversations both crews know about the other. I think the speed limit for the switches at the ends of the sidings is 10 MPH, but I couldn’t find anything on the speed within the siding track itself.
So, not knowing whether the tracks in the video were a two-track main or a main and a siding, I commented that it was possible that both trains were on a siding, which I have seen here many times.
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It would be most helpful if you would say where specifically it is on BNSF you are making your observations so we could look at the timetable.
It’s very common to make two trains proceeding in the same direction joint on a main track. Though you haven’t heard of it in your neighborhood, it’s not a violation of GCOR.
I suspect that what you are observing on sidings is that the sidings in question are non-controlled (also called non-bonded) and the most favorable aspect to enter is a lunar, which requires Restricted Speed. On a non-controlled siding it is not required under GCOR to make two trains joint to occupy it simultaneously – because by definition it’s not controlled territory – but many railroads nevertheless have a Dispatcher Instruction or other Special Rule requiring the dispatcher to inform the first train he or she is bringing in another train behind them.
It’s a rare siding turnout only good for 10 mph; more likely the turnout is good for 20 mph or more but the actual speed can’t be better than Restricted Speed, which is not more than 20 mph. Most of the non-bonded sidings out there in the world have #14 or #15 turnouts, which are good for 25-30 mph, depending upon the railroad.
It’s not necessary for both trains to fit in the siding so long as the train they’re meeting that will hold the main track will fit between siding switches. And that’s not an uncommon practice either. You just want to be absolutely certain, if you’re the dispatcher, that the train holding the main really will fit between siding switches! Otherwise you have a jackpot.
RWM
Okay. We’ve established that there’s no real problem with the video, or other instances of running trains this closely together at this speed. Now I’ve gotta tell my tale of life on CNW’s Wisconsin Division BZ (Before Zardoz hired out).
I was head brakeman on a Butler-bound manifest. The train ahead of us stalled on one of the monster grades between St. Francis and Butler. We were instructed by the dispatcher to give him a push. Our engineer decided that we’d take our train with us. So we came up behind him at Restricted Speed and tied on, and got him going. Once we got him up to about 25 or so, their conductor pulled the pin between us and we began to fall back. I was watching the spectacle of their train slowly pulling away from us when our enginer said, “Hey, Rookie–ever run an absolute before?” I looked up just in time to see Belton Junction (with three semaphore blades all horizontal) slide by us! There wasn’t more than a few car-lengths between us at that point, but we slowed sufficiently so that we had an Approach by the next block signal we passed.
If you read the description on the video and know the location that poster is talking about its just two n/b trains following each other in CTC on the main track.
RWM,
I thought that saw-bys were a rarity these days. That’s likely because I haven’t actually seen one in years on the lines I frequent. In the dark ages before radio communications between trains and the ds they were to blame for more than a few accidents. Are saw-by meets all that frequent today?
Mark
On lines with short sidings and long trains, not rare at all.
Double saw-bys, on the other hand, are rare, or one would hope, should be. But I had a few due to trains being longer than what showed on the train sheet. And I’m aware of railroads that did this as a regular practice on certain lines as recently as 10 years ago. If anyone is still doing them, that I have not heard.
RWM
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My location appears in the heading of the post; but, to amplify, I’m talking about BNSF’s Madill Subdivision, Texas Division, between Sherman and Irving. I have an old copy of the timetable that says the speed for the switches on the sidings near here is 10 MPH, and that speed is what I think I’ve observed.
I missed the information related to the video about it being CTC on a main.
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