Comments wanted on future layout plans

Model Railroader Layouts and layout building
1

Hi

I am currently planning a new layout in a room 11 X 7. The layout will be around the wall, on 18 inch deep shelves. Minimum radius is 24 inch, with no 6 turnouts on the main, no 4 on some sidings. The height of the layout will be about 50 inches from the floor. Do you see any improvements that you could suggest? I am also considering one staging area just outside of this room which will be accessible via an opening in the adjacent wall. This will be at the top right corner of the image. I don’t want to end up with a spaghetti, so I am trying to be realistic about what can be achieved with this space.

Thanks

Stéphane

2

What is your “theme”? The concept of what your railroad is.

I see two possibilities, it is a branch or an industrial lead of a major railroad (the double track at the top). Your train would come out of the tracks under the city cross over to the branch and do its work, then return to the tracks under the city. The alternative is the switcher stays on the branch, comes over to the tracks by the station, uses it as an interchange and then goes back to do its switching.

I think you are losing the whole top side for switching opportunities.I would angle the double tracks and have them go under a bridge or disappear just to the left of the crossover. Move the station up to the double diamond and make the operator the interlocking operator too. Run the doubl mains as stubs back into the corner. That will give you two longer staging tracks. make the city just as deep as the two tracks . Bring the track that runs across the lift out in “front” of the city and put a couple industries along the front edge. Tie that track into the double main just before the crossover to complete the loop. That will give you a couple more industries and make the top section more useful. By connecting the industry tracks on the top section to form another runaround, it would allow to “turn” (get the engine on the other end) of the train and work back clockwise to the double main.

Dave H.

3

You pretty much have the theme figured out, the top part is essentially the interface to a class 1 railroad with the others side being the short line feeding it. I am trying to base it Montreal, Quebec (where I live) in the 1990-2000 period. Will probably be either CN or CP.

I will look closely at your advices, sounds like you have some good ideas there I could use

sm

4

I think I would simply angle the double track main on the top slightly so it isn’t parallel to the edge of the benchwork.

I would add a turnout at the top just past the lift out section and connect it another new turnout on the main line (this would be hidden under the city), essentially making another passing track. What this would do is allow you to run two trains on the loop as a single track mainline if you ever wanted to. That wouldn’t cost much staging if indeed you extend this on into the next room.

5

I agree with Dave. You can certainly get a lot more action for the space and not get a spaghetti bowl. Spaghetti bowl typically occur when the track loops around and crossed through a scene more than once. Adding industrial tracks, interchange tracks, even complex ones doesn’t create that effect. The trick is to make sure each track has a viable purpose.

That said, I don’t like the hidden turnout. I had one that was partially hidden with just the points covered and it was a nightmare. I had good access from underneath, but I spent too much time working with it in awkward positions, and I vowed never again.

6

First, remember that track in the corners may be hard to reach. What is the function of the track going north allong the west side of the layout? The Hardwood Floors siding os going to be a problem. You may need to reach over the building for uncoupling cars or fixing derailments.

As stated by others above, that hidden track under the city is likily to give you problems.

Where is the interchange track between the mainline railroad and your line? Assuming right hand running, If east bound mainline trains are to drop off the cars for interchange, you don’t need the cross over assuming the northwest curve is your interchange. If west bound mainline trains are to interchange cars, you need a right hand cross over. Trains like trainling point drop offs and dislike facing point moves. The Old Dog would suggest a double ended siding at the station for an interchange track. Your line could then connect to the siding. Remember to provide a run around track for your line, the mainline line railroad would be unlikily to allow your trains on their track.

An additional item, note that you can’t access the Propane dealer without fouling the mainline.

Have fun

7

I like the general idea - it gives a lot of operating possibilities and still leaves space for scenery. The only comment I have is that you’ve got an awful lot of turnouts that are part of your main line and they are both facing and trailing point. I built a similar layout once and regreted having so many turnouts on the main since they were a constant source of derailments. Maybe you could have fewer turnouts off the main by using some of the space as a siding to the spurs so your turnouts are on the siding track rather than the main.

8

Thank you everyone for your comments; with them, I can go back to the drawing board. I think I will drop the idea of interchange on the visible layout, but will rather move it to the staging area that will be in the next room. I will probably keep the double main, as the area I use as a reference as one , but I will revisit it’s routing. You convinced me, the hidden turnout is gone.

If I keep the double main, and we now assume that this is a branch, should I still plan for double-end siding beside them? (Please forgive my beginner questions :))

Stephan

9

That would depend on how you intend to operate the branch.

If you intend for a train to enter on the mainline, go down the branch, and return, you could do with the siding. If you intend for the branch to have it’s own locomotive, then you would still need a place for the branch line and main line to exchange cars.

To clarify my original post somewhat, you need to answer some questions.

Do you want westbound mainline trains to be able to service the interchange track?

Do you want eastbound mainline trains to be able to service the interchange track?

How many cars do you want to be able to interchange at one time?

Do you your short line train to be able to pick up and deliver cars to the interchange in one movement, or can the pick up and deliveries be accomplished with seperate moves at different times?

Do you want your locomotive to be allowed to push cars when delivering them to the interchange, or do you want to require the locomotive to lead the train in both directions?

The answers to the above will dictate the trackage required.

Note that if you define your line as a seperate short line, it probably would NOT be allowed to use the mainline for run around moves, if you define it as a short line, the mainline could be used with the dispatcher’s permission.

Have fun

10

I think the Dog hit the nail on the head. Your use of track depends on your traffic volume. If your branch is such that you are only running a couple freights a day and maybe some passenger service, then the number of trains through an area will be limited and the main will set idle for long periods of time. It may be common place for the dispatcher to give free access to the main for long periods of time to do what ever moves you have. If it is a busy branch line, you may still be able to do runaround moves but it is more problematic,Each move may need to be with the permission of the dispatcher.

At any rate, traffic flow or commerce, determine both the trackage and the how the products will be delivered.

11

Two minor things that you may want to add and this is strickly my opinion. On a lay out like that I would have at least a two track main line. And where your station is you might want to add another switch in there to get in and out of your station track so you won’t have to backup your passenger train when going to the main line.

Good luck it looks good so far.

12

The use of the track depends on who owns the track, not volume. The volume comes into play only if the line is a “branch”.

What the Old Dog was actually suggesting is a “requirements definition”. One must know what a particular configuration of track is to accomplish it to design it. To solve a problem, one must identify it.

Have fun

13

Hi

Let’s see if I am able to answer ExPalaceDog questions:

Just to put in context, the branch, serviced by either CN or CP, same operator as the mainline (I have yet to make up my mind) would normally be served by a train going towards the west side (left) of the layout.

Do you want westbound mainline trains to be able to service the interchange track?

yes (here I assume that the interchange is in the staging area, not shown on the original drawing)

Do you want eastbound mainline trains to be able to service the interchange track?

same answer.

My initial though on the subject, is that the top main line track would be more there as appearance than really be used for operations. but from your comments, my view on this topic could change. I put the lift-up to allow continuous running, more than being an integral part of the operation. In that respect, I would more likely operate the layout in a point to point fashion.

How many cars do you want to be able to interchange at one time?

maybe 5-6… I have to really operate any layout, so I would need to rely on your experience with this kind of layout…

Do you want your short line train to be able to pick up and deliver cars to the interchange in one movement, or can the pick up and deliveries be accomplished with seperate moves at different times?

Which one is more fun? I tend to think it could be done in 2 movements

Do you want your locomotive to be allowed to push cars when delivering them to the interchange, or do you want to require the locomotive to lead the train in both directions?

Given the size of layout, I think I need to allow the locomotive to push cars to the interchange.

I hope this will give you a good perpective on my objectives

Thanks

Stéphane

14

I forgot to mention, I am reusing structures from my first layout, so I do have some constraints regarding for example the Hardwood floor building or the city. I would rather not have to cut the structures if I can avoid it.

sm

15

For a much improved scenery effect in each inside corner - consider adding (4) 90 degree triangles where their two equal sides are at least 6".

In other words, if you cut a 6"x6" square piece of plywood in half, corner to corner, you’ll end up with two triangles - so do that twice for four triangles. Each triangle would need appropriate support underneath to attach to the benchwork.

This eliminates square corners almost hitting the inside apex of each curved track, and would not hamper your hips for reaching into the corners. You could of course increase the size of the triangle sides to 12"x12" which is probably feasible. Experiment with some cardboard templates first before committing to “triangle benchwork.”

I discovered the “triangle trick” from “The Chippewa Central” MR mag trackplan. The HO Scale dimensions here are two 4’x4’ sections connected by a 2’x4’ section. There are two 90 degree triangles with 12" equal sides on each of the two inside corners.

These two triangle inside corners really add a lot for operations plus it increases the inside corner curves to a larger & smoother transition radius. In my case, this trackplan is being adapted to N Scale dimensions, and will eventually have more layout extensions added to the trackplan.

16

Maybe something like this

17

How close under your armpit will the benchwork come? You may want to have all car spotting locations between their industry and the edge of the shelf. You may not want turnouts behind buildings (unless you plan to use powered switches.)

I can take in 4 cars at a time on my Timesaver layout, which has as many customers as your much larger plan. So you can use longer inbound ‘trains’ than I do (each customer gets 2 or 3 cars per delivery). This means a longer interchange track, or you break up inbound / outbound movements.

Cool detail: at the interchange track, have a manually set signal to indicate to the Class 1 RR that there are cars ready to be picked up. Maybe you can have a lit signal stand that changes from green to yellow. For my 1900-era layout I am going to use a highball (literally) to mean there is no reason to stop. I still have to go to a fishing tackle shop and then borrow some of my wife’s black thread…

If you just cannot pick between CN and CP, suppose the City Government forced the railroads to share a single right-of-way, and there is a trackage rights agreement within City limits.

18

Hi

I have updated the design. Please see this new image. . Am I making progress in the right direction?

Thanks

Stéphane

19

Making progress? Yes!

Look at your engine yard. By using a left instead of right hand turnout you might be able to gain a car length on each yard track and avoid a “S” curve.

You might run the interchange track in front of the apartment building to gain some space for deliveries and pick up’s from your pike.

Have fun

20

I have uploaded the latest XtrkCad file at this adress:
http://www.smorin.com/MontPlaisir31.zip
You will have to unzip and extract the file to open it.

Stéphane