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Commissioners’ blood boiling over belated Bombardier streetcars
This is what happens when using the bidding process to accept the lowest bid. The tradition of public agencies to use the bidding process is detrimental. So, TCC is getting what it is paying for.
Quality should not be sacrificed for economics. In the long term, services and products may prove more expensive in the long term as demonstrated in in Toronto.
@Paul. Wow, presuming an awful lot that this was lowest bid. There is much which goes into the bidding process, including such things as local preference and manufacture, minimum performance requirements, etc. The fact that it sounds as if TTC had a penalty clause in the contract ($50 million) tells me that TTC put a lot of thought into the bidding process and the contract they signed. The problem with lowest bid contracts usually stems from a poorly developed RFQ package, not from the bids themselves. I am hard pressed to think of any situation, public or private, where cost is not the primary driver in which quote is accepted.
“Quality shpould not be sacrificed for economics…” ? Really? Do you drive a Bentley?
Quality and economics are ALWAYS being traded off. There is no excuse for a vendor missing a delivery obligation, but the idea that public agencies should spend taxpayers money without regard for economic considerations is irresponsible.
We need to know a lot more than this story reports before we can understand what went wrong, e.g., did the TTC issue any change orders? Has there been a labor stoppage or slowdown at the factory? Did third party vendors deliver critical parts or components late?
Bombardier LRVs (in Sacramento and Minneapolis-St. Paul) have a reputation for ultra-high quality–heavy, thoroughly-engineered, durable vehicles. Did they try to replicate that in the TTC order rather than build a light, “cheap” car that would undermine their brand but be delivered quickly?
Bombardier might have screwed this up on their own, but that’s not apparent on the basis of what we know from this story or other public information.
Maybe they were rushing to meet GO Transit’s cab car delivery, bigger customer, but of course thats just one of dozens of reasons why theyre late. Who knows!
Bombardier seems to own the Canadi*n equivalent of the “Buy American” political leanings in the USA. Personally, I am neither a Francophile, or a Francophobe. However, I believe that the Canadian market should not be abandoned to Bombardier. One must wonder whether other suppliers in the international market would be willing to establish Canadian assembly points for rail cars sold into that much smaller market. Market positioning, such as Siemens with an assembly point in CA, seems to say NO.
After all, any major contract with the NY MTA would equal one covering all other MTAs combined. NY MTA Subway-elevated equipment is the “Holy Grail” for any would-be equipment provider. Up for grabs, if only to allow a new vendor to demonstrate compatibility?
There was a streetcar builder in Oregon City, Oregon that went out of business because of lack of orders. Perhaps Bombardier should have sub-contracted to the Oregon company for some of the cars. Back in 1914, the Jewett Car Company built 125 cars for the San Francisco Municipal Railway and they probably came on schedule. Those cars ran from 1914 to 1958. Two of them have been restored and are running in 2015 on the Historic F Line in San Francisco. 130 & 162.
Maybe I should put my 2 cents in since I live here. Some of you don’t know the whole story it seems. While the whole thing stems from a weeks long strike in Thunder Bay and the fact their plant in Mexico for lack of a better term fudged up on the major components, a legal option for the TTC could come as a win for Bombardier. Bombardier already has the facilities needed to build to the TTC’s specifications, including what is known as the “Legacy Gauge” Strikes are legal so any jurist will throw that claim out. I would. The fact that the Mexican Plant screwed up is the core issue. When the parts came to Thunder Bay, and assembled they did not quite line up the way they should of. Bombardier told the TTC that they could rivet the parts together but the TTC said no. That could come out in a court case, and Bombardier would win that one since it’s a safety issue. This further hampered the ability to deliver the streetcars on time. This answers Mr. Selden’s question. Do I want to ride on a streetcar that will fall apart? Nope.
I would impose the $50 million penalty rather than go to court and possibly lose. GO Transit’s order had nothing to do with this, as they can be built side by side. So stop that garbage.
The bidding process itself was to say, entertaining. Siemens would’ve won, but their bid came in at 50% over what Bombardier bid. Plus there is the issue of tooling because of the Legacy Gauge. Siemens would’ve had to tool their plant just to build this order. Plus I’m sure in the contract is the requirement that it has to be built in Canada somewhere and made with parts that come from Canada. This is similar to the “Buy America” requirement. Bombardier doesn’t need retool to build to the Legacy Gauge, as the plants in Thunder Bay and Kingston are equipped to handle this. Any builder that wants to woo the TTC as a customer would need to do this. Bombardier, which inherited the former Can-Car/Hawker Siddeley plant in Thunder Bay and the former Metro Canada/UTDC plant in Kingston doesn’t.
Do I fault Thunder Bay for delays? No. I do not. I support them 100%. I would rather have safety over anything else that comes to mind. I’d rather have something delayed than to possibly be injured or killed.
Sub contracting is out of the question. I would’ve much preferred if all of it was done in Thunder Bay. I would also accept some parts or assembly done in Kingston.
Mr. Jeffries is pretty much hitting the nail on the head. But with my 5 cents in, it should shed some light. Or complaints. Or maybe some of you just didn’t do the research and are armchair critics. Some posts seem to be like that. No offense.
Bottom line: I would allow the 50 million and possibly a fraction of what it would cost to overhaul the existing fleet and throw everything else out if it came to a court case.
What I basically put down should silence all the armchair critics, and those that prefer couch surfing with a 40oz typing while drunk on their own beliefs without properly researching. And of course to Mr. Reid from Florida, GO Transit is not a bigger customer. So I just basically pooped on your own party and burst your bubble. The TTC and GO Transit are on par with each other, but the TTC deal is worth more. Way more if you count the order for 420 subway cars, which you obviously didn’t factor in, and were built side by side with the first of these streetcars and the GO Transit order. Yes, Bombardier got that order and they were built in Thunder Bay. That was valued at over 1 billion Canadian. Yes. Billion. This streetcar order is for 204 streetcars with an option for 240 more. Didn’t know that now did you? Billions of dollars? Easy. I’d rather have all the work done in Thunder Bay, Ont. or in Kingston, Ont. Either one of the 2 are acceptable.
Andy Byford and Josh Colle are complete morons it seems when it comes to this. Granted Byford knows how to run the transit system but is clueless as to this stuff. If David Gunn was still running the TTC, you would not be seeing press releases like this. Guess both of them don’t grasp it. I’m sure a judge will smack those two upside the head when it comes to trial. I definitely would and give them a tongue lashing that’s unfit to even type here, but would be suitable for printing in the Canadian media. If Pierre Elliot Trudeau and Conrad Black can give the finger to the camera, what I’d say would make those incidents look childish. Just to make a laughingstock out of them for rushing the order instead of the age old adage of “Safety First”.
I’m sure some of you will say I’m wrong, but I have one advantage over you. I live here. I know this soap opera.
On a lighter note, Thunder Bay, has had a long standing and good relationship with Toronto for over 50 years. Maybe even before that. One questi
Go with the fine. Bombardier should of had their people in Mexico managing quality control.
How can you manage incompetence? That’s my question. I don’t fault Bombardier, but now you’re getting me to look at that $50 million clause. That clause is alot easier than going to court and possibly losing. Then the TTC would be looking like asses. Then there is talks about banning Bombardier from future contracts, which is not a good move. The Province of Ontario could order that they have to allow Bombardier to bid, since it has to do with Canadian jobs, since the Province kicks in a third of the cost.
Even better: Have the stuff built entirely in Canada. You would not have this problem at all.
Good thing Toronto didn’t order theirs from Oregon Iron Works/United Streetcar, a joke of an institution with so many unfulfilled orders and protracted delays that makes the Bombardier mess look like a mere hiccup.
Mere hiccup? The MPP for Thunder Bay is about to chastize the TTC according to media reports. Here, you have these morons that run the TTC not putting safety first. All of these delays are safety related from what I read. If it were me, I’d fire both Byford and Colle. Seeing those comments in the newspapers makes me want to throttle them both. And I live in Toronto.
United Streetcar didn’t bid as far as I know. Came down to TRAMpower, Can-Car/Hawker-Siddeley (now Bombardier), and Siemens. Can-Car won the bid. Can-Car being Bombardier, since they are using the former Can-Car facility. Thought I’d throw it in like that, since people in Thunder Bay still call it Can-Car, Hawker-Siddeley, whatever. Same stuff.
I said I’d allow the 50 million. I change my statement on that. I would NOT allow that and bar the TTC from suing Bombardier over production delays that clearly relate to safety. Since the Province of Ontario is paying for them as well and is partially funding them, for sure they will get involved. MPP’s count as government involvement. So you could say the government is getting involved. By telling those two asshats (sorry) to shut up and suck it up.
They can’t ban Bombardier from future orders. That’s been pretty much established. As I said, the Province could say “we aren’t paying for these unless Bombardier is allowed to bid”. Summoning Bombardier to explain their position is a dumb move. And would make Byford and Colle look worse than former US President George W. Bush.
Funny thing is, as a contradictory statement, Colle is reported as saying the 10 we have roaming the streets now are “fantastic. We love them, we just need more”. Yeah, good Mr. Colle. Put your hand on your rear end, suck it up and continue to wait. Like everyone else. Are we mad? Depends on who you ask. I’m not.