For my first post here, I’d like to first say that I’m glad to be here. I own two BLI locomotives, a PRR T1 (unlettered) and an SP GS-4 #4449. I do not own a layout, and have been running my T1 at a local club layout. I eventually plan to build my own module layout according to Free-Mo standards.
My topic today is: Why aren’t DCC systems for large layouts simply “plug and play”?
I mean, soldering wires to the tracks is easy enough, but I’ve seen what it looks like under the club layout and it looks like a mess of wires that I wouldn’t be able to make heads or tails of. That makes me worry that I won’t be able to build my own module layout without extensive help.
And today, the guy responsible for managing the layout’s roster had trouble getting JMRI to recognize my GS-4, despite the Digitrax command station being able to control it from the default factory address. Pretty disappointing, right? Even the programming track setup is a mess.
When you consider that the average model railroad layout has a mess of wiring under the baseboard, you don’t have to wonder why the hobby seems to be having trouble finding its cachet with the younger generations. The answer is simple: there is a lack of defineable standards for easy set-up of the power districts, boosters, etc. Everything required to run a layout larger than your average 4x6 layout, ends up pushing the difficulty level beyond what is reasonable.
I sometimes wonder if we were better off sticking with DC control systems over DCC. When we’re babying the DCC systems more than we are running the locomotives, then there is a problem with the model railroading product industry. Instead of shrugging our shoulders, it would be better to push the manufacturers of DCC systems to hold some kind of summit to find a way to make the hobby more accessible - and affordable.
It is not surprising when I see the vast majority of children at my local hobby shop preferring R/C vehicles ove
I think it’s interesting that you’re blaming DCC for the sloppy wiring job at your club. That is sort of like blaming your computer for the messy paperwork on your desk.
Let’s look at Chris P.'s wiring he’s complaining about in the link you posted:
How is this DCC’s fault? Using wire nuts? Really? That Zephyr laying on half-filled grocery bags…seriously? He’s got a BDL168 and three DS64’s mounted on the same panel (and in different orientations), and all the wiring is going all over the place. These are terrible wiring practices being shown here. Show this to any electrician or electrical technician (or heck, even a car mechanic), and they’d either cringe, laugh, or cry. All of them would make you do it over again until it’s right.
Being neat and tidy with the wiring has nothing to do with DCC. A rat’s nest of wiring can happen with any layout when the folks doing the wiring are uninterested in neatness. It’s no different then blaming Microscale for a decal job full of crooked lines, air bubbles and silvering that you did with their product.
Folks also have the tendency to over-estimate their DCC needs, and this results in way too much wiring for what they want to accomplish.
I had a 25’x50’ HO layout with a 200’ long double-track mainline that was DCC w/ wireless throttles for 10 years. I ran with up to 6 operators at the same time with 4 yards and up to 30 locos (several of them sound-equipped) on the layout. According to some people, I should have had multiple boosters, breakers, and wiring all over the place. Instead, I ran my whole layout with a lone Digitrax Zephyr system with a UR91 radio receiver. I had no other boosters or breakers. The entire wiring consisted of a pair of 14AWG
Why would you compare a NEW Broadway Limited Locomotive to a USED RC car? Also, you can find locos for much less than what you would proabably spend on Broadway Limited steam.
It’s not a myth. Wiring a large DC layout for multiple independent train operation anywhere on the layout takes a vast amount of wiring.
Have you personally ever wired a large DC layout for independent control of multiple trains anywhere on the layout? I have. I have also helped wire layouts for DCC. DCC is significantly easier.
For many of us, they do. Off-the-shelf, right out of the box.
There are many lower-cost ways to enter the hobby than with a BLI steam locomotive, as I’m sure that you know. When you contrast the list price for a brand-new top-of-the-line locomotive with the cost of a second-hand R/C car, you’re not really setting up a fair comparison, are you?
Everyone is welcome to post an opinion, of course. But you can also expect those with differing experience to post as well.
My layout sits in a space that is 14’ x 26’. It was built in the late 1980s with code 100 track and power routing switches. About 6 years ago I switched to DCC. I connected two wires to the track from the booster, two wires from the power supply to the booster, and plugged the throttle directly into the booster. Then plugged the power supply into the wall and ran my first DCC locomotive. ( An Atlas DCC Trainmaster ) It wasn’t perfect, but the engine did make it all the way around the layout.
This is an over simplification of my first DCC wiring job, but it is correct as far as just attaching two wires to the tracks to run trains and two wires from the power supply to the booster. The DCC manufacturers have no control over how complicated you want to make it, or how sloppy you make it.
i think many recreational activities we call hobbies require a significantly investment in money and time that I think most kids can’t afford and even less so after entering college and getting married. I only really had time for such hobbies after the kids became more independent.
most of the members at the club layout I belong to are retired. I think the target market for our hobby isn’t kids, but adults with older kids. Adults who have more spare time and no college bills.
I think most kids, at least the kind I knew when I grew up, can’t afford our hobbies. Most kids are interested in activities that recquire a small number of investments: baseball mitt, hockey skates, basketball, skate boards, guitar.
i can’t see how DC, requiring block wiring and control panels to run multiple locomotives, is less complicated than DCC.
There are many levels of participation in the hobby from off-the-shelf to building from scratch. It takes time to develop an understanding.
I do a lot of the DCC and Electrical work for a fairly large NTRAK club. We have a boat load of heavy wiring on our modules. Why? Because we have to maintain compatibility with analog DC power systems. If we could run DCC exclusively, I could rip out about 2/3 of the cables.
As far as JMRI not recognizing your engine. If the Digitrax command station could run it the DCC part is working. JMRI is running on a computer linked to Loconet. Loconet works if the train runs. Problem is on the computer end. We run JMRI on a Linux based computer. Very stable.
DCC is only ONE way to control model trains with Digital Contrel. That is the NMRA version.
DCS is another.
There are at least five other ways.
Three or four are wireless. Battery and decoder in the loco or tender. No wires, runs on DC or DCC layouts. The power on the rails can charge the battery.
A couple use a smart phone or iPad.
Google it and store the links in Favorites or Bookmarks.
The OP ignored the fact that a lot of the wiring he was looking at was switch power, switch control, and signal wiring. Plus wiring for any lighing on the layout. He assumed it was all DCC.
I think the OP is just having a good time reading how we struggle along giving a good answer. Whoever is beyond setting up the track of a starter set and feeding two wires to a powerpack knows that there is the necessity of doing a certain amount of wiring.
Or maybe he is one of the dead rail & bluetooth gurus poking at us.
OK, rather than debate that issue amongst ourselves, Tom, I deleted it from the list. But, wouldn’t it be better to let the OP debate that issue should he so choose?
DCC wiring can be as simple as one wishes or as complicated as any DC layout. The reason is simple wiring overkill by the builder.
My 12’ ISL uses two wires from my Tech 6 to the track a friend of mine uses a feeder with drop wires every three feet and every industry siding on his 16’ ISL and he uses a NCE Powercab. I can see feeders every 9 feet but,every three feet plus the sidings? Overkill.
Paul, where did you get that picture from the underside of my previous layout? OK not really, my Zephyr didn;t sit on a pile of grocery bags, it sat right on the floor. But the DB150 driving the rails was on a shelg with nice terminal strips and the wires all had crimped (AND soldered!) ring terminals on them. But i DID have 2 of my Tam Valley Singlet servo controls on a control panel made from the flap of a cardboard box, with the track lines drawn on with a sharpie pen.
I would LOVE to see how you can do “plug and play for a large layout”. How large? What’s the track plan? No reverse loops? 10 reverse loops? How many trains run at the same time, 3? 30? This is like saying there should just be one type of car on the road that automagically fits every purpose.
The sloppy wiring I’m SURE has a lot to do with the problems experienced. I have yet to be unable to read and program any brand of decoder in any brand of loco I’ve come across - I cheat at home and use one brand for all my non-sound locos and one brand for all my sound locos, but I do take my laptop with JMRI and program track to club shows and work on anyone’s locos, not just my own, and there is a huge variety of decoders among club members.
It absolutely IS a lot less of a “mess of wire” with DCC, even for a larger layout. Our club modular layout assembles to somewhere around 160x30 feet now. DCC power? Under each section is one simple wiring harness with Power Pole plugs and sockets at each end, one pair of wires is for the track power, and another pair is for power to light up structures and run accessories. That’s it. Theonly modules with a “huge mass of wiring” under them any more are some older ones where the old DC wiring was bypassed but the DC wires and toggles were not yet removed. Both my previous layouts had little more underneath than some strans of #12 wire running more or less parallel under the track, with occasional feeder taps. I h
I would run a bus with feeders every 9’ and a power booster as needed-simple wiring. The whole idea behind DCC.
I’ve seen my fair share of wiring overkill including my friends DCC switching layout. A 4x8 with a feeder on every track is overkill.
I’m yet to find the need to solder rail joiners.Of course I go the extra step to ensure they have a tight fit even if that requires a light squeeze with my 6" needle nose on the sides of the joiner just behind the rail joint.
BTW,I keep telling my friend Steve I need to bring my dikes over and clip some of that excessive wiring.[:-,]
Seriously I told him on his planned Godzilla size basement “U” shape switching layout he will probably be wise to use boosters as needed since the layout will be 30’ along the sides of the “U” and 24’ at the bottom of the “U” and I recommended feeders every 9’.
