I’m in the same boat. That’s why from now on I’ll spend that extra money I have on prebuilt kits which are probably even less expensive than similar craftsman kits and save a lot of time and frustration. I have enough of the latter in my life. I don’t need to buy extra.
Hi jecorbett:
“…I also love the paint detail that can be achieved with the multi-piece laser cut window assemblies…”
I’m sorry, I didn’t word that very well.
You are right. The pieces of windows and doors are almost always the same colour. I didn’t intend to imply that multi piece windows would have different colours in them. However, they are almost always a different colour from the walls around them. What I was referring to is the accuracy that can be achieved in the deliniation between the wall and window/door colours when the window/door trim can be painted separately from the walls. That would be true of separate molded windows/doors as well of course, but I suspect that cost considerations are at work there.
When the windows and doors are molded into the walls I have a difficult time getting nice straight paint lines between them. In fact, I have several Merchants’ Row kitbashed buildings to paint and I am not looking forward to the task. Masking them is about as attractive a prospect to me as building HO chairs is to you, and my brush painting skills are the pits. I know the Merchants’ Row kits don’t qualify as ‘craftsman’ kits but if I had a choice between the molded in details and separate details I would go for the latter.
I guess my pet peeve is somewhat the opposite of yours. I don’t like not having the separate parts.[swg][(-D] Prototypical molded windows/doors for each kit would be the ideal but the cost is clearly prohibitive.
By the way, I had a roofing customer a few years ago who had painted her house in every colour of the rainbow, including the window parts. Needless to say, it was a bit of a shock to the system when you first saw it![(-D][(-D][(-D]
I wasn’t intending to find fault with your points. They are all valid.
Regards
Dave
What I took away from your OP was that the kit was pricey despite not having cast furnishings and windows. It seemed to be about the lack of tradeoff between price of the kit and labor/talent needed to assemble it than just the amount of talent/labor (and time) needed by itself.
I also think you mentioned that some of the lumber was not pre-cut.
IMO, a “kit” that is nothing more than a pile of sticks and instructions should cost no more than $15, but I suppose there is more to it than that.
It seemed like your OP was saying that you didn’
60 to 100 plus years ago when these kinds of wooden buildings were new in real life, it was rather common for window sash and casings to be painted different
I hope folks realize that if a manufacturer sells through a distributor, they would get about $6.50 for a $15 kit. How much profit do you think would be in that $6.50 once they paid for materials, packaging, printing, shipping and their time?
Jim
I understand the problem. The producer needs to get paid for his design and his instructions, his know how, that is where the value of the product is. I’m just saying that I don’t feel like I get a lot for my money because I have to put in the time and labor, relative to other options.
Its part of the problem when the entire planet is viewed as a labor force…it makes it really hard to support your own… and really easy to hire someone at $0.75 an hour to assemble some of it for me. But enough commentary on that.
Another one of my gripes is when I spend a couple hundred dollars for a craftsman kit and find out the scale lumber needs to be cut to fit. When I spend that much for a kit, I don’t think it is unreasonable to expect that the parts are already cut to size. Effectively all I’m getting for my money are scratchbuilding supplies and a plan. I’ve found that to be true of the kits of several companies and needless to say they are getting no more of my business.
That’s pretty much what a craftsman kit is; more expensive, more complicated, more detailed, and generally a model of an actual prototype. You could by an Athearn BB HW generic passenger car kit 50 years ago for around $3.50 IIRC (decorated, with trucks and X2f couplers) . If you wanted a prototype heavyweight passenger car, you went to Walthers and for about the same price, you got a body kit. You had to shape the roof. If you wanted it to run on the rails, you bought trucks, for about the same price. If you actually wanted to run it in a train, couplers were extra. Interiors cost more and if you were so demented as to want interior lighting, ka-ching, ka-ching. You also needed paint and decals. By the time you were finished, you would have paid well over the inflation adjusted equivalent of $100. Both La Belle and Ambroid kits were, and La Belle kits still are, essentially scratch building exercises with enough precut wood (not necessarily to length) for you to complete the job.
At the current time, there are two different sources for a Southern Pacific CS 22 station, one of which is the latest version of an old Suydam kit that dates back to the 50’s. http://www.alpinemodels.com/catalog/item/2762955/2639756.htm It’s relatively inexpensive, but it leaves a lot to be desired. The American Model Builders laser kit is $90 more, but it does a much better job of replicating the prototype station.
To me the advantage of kits is that all the parts are provided in one box and there are instructions. Otherwise you’re on your own to round up all the parts and figure out to build the thing - unless you’re following a good magazine article. Having built craftsman kits as well as screwdriver kits, scratch/parts built and nearly RTR, I would say they are all enjoyable. But they are different in terms of time required. A LaBelle kit makes a nice introduction into scratch/parts building wooden cars.
Older craftsman kits tend to leave more for the builder to do. Also the parts can be coarser. I have an old Quality Craft kit where the door handles on a boxcar are to be made by bending wire. But the wire was supplied - you just cut it to length, bent it, and drilled a hole for it.
One of the reasons I switched from HO to S was the parts are bigger. Easier to see and work with.
Enjoy
Paul
[quote user=“Doughless”]
jecorbett
I’m not opposed to doing difficult tasks if it produces something that is worth the effort. What irritates me is difficulty for the sake of making things difficult which it seems to be what many of these craftsman kits come with. The window casings and the unassembled chairs are a perfect example of that. Both are available preassembled so why require it be done the hard way? One of the arguments for the unassembled window casings is they allow you build them with the window open. FSM kits come with some metal window castings in the raised position.
Someone else mention he liked the finer muntins that the Branchline windows have. If he hadn’t mentioned that to me, I never would have noticed. In either case, the benefits are hardly worth the additional time it requires to assemble these windows. As for the chairs, I suppose someone might argue the Branchline chairs are nicer than the preassembled Preiser chairs. That’s assuming of course you are able to assemble them properly, a very difficult task. And even if that is true, it is an interior detail. It doesn’t need to be great looking. It is going to be difficult to see anyway. All it needs to really do is help fill an empty space. Museum quality is hardly needed.
What I took away from your OP was that the kit was pricey despite not having cast furnishings and windows. It seemed to be about the lack of tradeoff between price of the kit and labor/talent needed to assemble it than just the amount of talent/labor (and time) needed by itself.
I also think you mentioned that some of the lumber was not pre-cut.
That’s exactly it. One of these kits isn’t intended to be equivalent to a Walthers, Design Preservation, Pikestuff, or other simple plastic model. I suppose I can see the frustration in buying a craftsman kit because you want the structure, only to find it requires a ton of extra work compared to what you can buy for less in a plastic kit. On the other hand, they are different products intended for different customers. If all you want is for something to be finished and on the layout quickly, you aren’t the target customer for a craftsman kit.
You could sort of make the same statement about plastic kits too. If you want to assemble one out of the box without painting, there are kits molded in color that you can do that with. But with others, you do need to paint them, trim and file some parts to fit, and maybe add some extra details. You can take a basic DPM type kit and turn it into a super-detailed structure that can rival some craftsman level kits when you are finished. But as others have said, it’s all about how much time and effort you want to put into a model. Not only that, but it allows you to have models that are unique to your layout.
Jim
I am not opposed to requiring extra work if it produces some tangible benefit. What I am opposed to is difficulty for the sake of difficulty. If you go back to the OP, you will see my main problem was not the 5 piece window casings because I worked through those. It was the ridiculous four piece chairs of which there are 20 in the add on interior detail kit. It is really absurd. The kit of which I am speaking has parts for two sections of the Dubois store, a pharmacy and a restaurant. The pharmacy contained parts for six sets of shelving, each in three pieces. There was the shelf back, the simulated merchandise, and the facing. That was pretty straight forward. The only tedious part to it was coloring the various pieces of merchandise which were nothing more than sillouettes. I sprayed those parts white and then used Sharpies to paint them various colors. Not real fine detail but certainly good enough for an interior wher
Since I started this thread by ranting about the unnecessary difficulty in Branchline kits I feel I should give so kudos for some recent offerings from Walthers. There snap in window system is a breeze. The windows have colored frames, white sashes, and pre-installed glazing. They are a snap to install. Literally. They snap into place with no glue necessary although I will put a drop of glue on the pegs just for safety. I can install all windows in a structure in less time than it takes me to assemble and install one window in a branchline kit and they look every bit as good to me. Better still these kits really don’t require painting. It used to be that if you didn’t paint a plastic kit, it looked plastic, but these new kits from Walthers look as if they have been painted. The best part is they are able to offer these kits at a very reasonable price and they look every bit as nice as a comparable sized craftsman kit which would cost several times more and require probably four times as much labor.
You’re probably right about that. Just because someone offers a kit doesn’t mean everything about it is perfect or the best design possible. I can think of a few items I’ve purchased over the years that I just gave up on. Some of the parts were so fine that I could barely see them back when my eyes were much better 25 years ago. I don’t know how anyone was supposed to paint and glue them into place. Maybe someone did, but I couldn’t.
I suppose that will always be an issue as long as there are model kits sold. We all have different skill levels and how much time we want to devote to a project, not to mention that some designs may not be the best ones possible. It’s not a “one size fits all” deal.
Jim
To the OP.
Do you think these builds would be possible without craftsman kits?
I know they give me great pleasure to build.
Sure, to each his own…
Also, I think the definition of ‘craftman’s kit’ has changed. Now you have kits ranging from essentially wood versions of a plastic building kit, with the parts already laser cut, to the old style “box o’ stix” that you had to cut to length, sand, seal, paint etc.
In my experience, I have seen very few kits that were just a bag of sticks. The only exceptions have been fences, corrals, etc. In general, the major components (walls, floor, roof, etc.) have been cut to size and shape. The “bag of sticks” consists of the parts needed to create the trim. For wooden kits, it is sometimes advisable to make these a bit oversized because there is the possibility of expansion and contraction. Once the kit is built, painted, and sealed, there should be no more changes in the size of the parts. I would much rather have an oversized trim piece that must be shortened, than a too-short piece that needs to be lengthened. I haven’t figured out how to do that.
Whether it’s worth the time and effort to build up windows, as opposed to using complete cast pieces, is purely a matter of individual preference. I’ve done both. There is a great feeling of satisfaction from doing the fine detail work, but it can get tedious. On some projects, I love doing it. On others, I’d rather save the effort.
This discussion has focused on wood kits. Before laser cutting, wood kits were much less precise. Nowadays there are also resin kits to consider. They are often considered craftsman kits because there’s a lot of work to be done and some special skills to be employed. There’s a lot of flash to be removed, drilling for various parts, and drilling & tapping for trucks and couplers. Those who don’t want to do that work will have to buy ready-to-run, or buy a simpler kit, or pay someone to build it for them, or do without.
Tom
Alexander Scale Models NYC Freight Depot - Except for the signs, cast doors & windows, and chimney - literally a “bag of sticks”. Scale drawing had to be converted from 1:1 to HO. Lighting, sliding freighthouse doors, and inside trim (windows, flooring) and walls added by me.
Suncoast Models Fairbanks-Morse Coaling Tower - Except for a few cast pieces (gear wheel, ladders), another “bag of sticks”. Exterior lighting was added by me.
There is ~100 hrs of work in each one of them, for various reasons. Worth every penny I paid for the kits in entertainment value alone.
Tom
While I’ve built a few wood craftsman-type kits and scratchbuilt even more in wood, once styrene scratchbuilding materials became readily available I wouldn’t look at a wood kit even if it was given to me.
My house isn’t anywhere near that old, but it has sash and casings in different colours - can’t imagine a “dip job” for details like that.
For me, the fun is still in the building, and I’m currently working on a slightly modified version of Walthers City Station - almost completely painted, including casings in contrasting colours on the sash and doors. I do likewise on most DPM structures, too, like these under-construction background buildings…
No contrasting window trim on this, one of DPM’s earlier offerings, but it was a lot of enjoyment to add details and paint it…
…and I definitely enjoy “scratchbuilding” structures using Tichy and Grandt Line details…
Craftsman kits…bag of sticks…oh my! LOL…
How about a scratch built brass silver soldered chain-link sliding fence gate that works? Not painted yet. Long posts fit into holes in Homasote scenery…no need to glue them in, makes them removeable.
OP…Try Your hand at wood ship building…keel up…now there’s a bag of sticks…he he’.
Take Care! [:D]
Frank
Scratch-built side porch.
