Any input or experience with the Crest Train Engineer or other types of radio control? How does it compare to DCC? Please be nice, I am new!!![:D]
Tim
It’s my understanding that the Crest is for outdoor G-scale trains. One system does nothing but control the voltage fed to the track by the power pack, and another requires on-board receivers in the locomotives. What scale are you modeling in? I think the Crest system would be too big for indoor HO or smaller.
I am modelling HO. the Crest CRE-55000 is called the HO Train Engineer. It is relatively new and built specifically for HO. I have not used DCC, and know very little about it, so I don’t know how the two would compare. I will not be running my trains on someone else’s track, and others won’t be using mine, so compatibility with other layouts is not a concern. Ease of operation and simplicity of installation would be the key. Because the operation is built using R/F, I would think no special wiring or layout changes are required, but as with most things, I want to research it to death to be sure I make the right choice for me. If anyone is interested, the site is
http://www.aristocraft.com/catalog/crest/trainengineer/whitepaper/
I just looked at the Crest Train Engineer CRE-55000 manual on their Web site. Some things I would consider before purchasing it:
It is very similar to DCC – you have to put a receiver in each locomotive that you want to control. The biggest difference seems to be that the Crest is a proprietary system that is not NMRA DCC compliant so only Crest receivers will work with it.
Over the long haul, it may cost more for Crest receivers than NMRA-compliant decoders, which are available from several manufacturers and dropping in price to around $15 each, depending on brand and number of functions that can be controlled.
You also run the risk of this system not selling well enough to continue in business, leaving you with an orphaned system that you can’t get receivers or parts for, like the people who use CTC, the forerunner of DCC.
Crest was developed by Polk’s Hobby Shop for G-scale is is being downsized to fit O and HO.
I looked at the Crest system for my G-scale equipment, but settled on the AirWire 900 from CVP Products, which is NMRA compliant, so decoders will be easy to acquire.
I use Aristo Craft radio control on my HO layout. This is the exact same system Crest now markets, possibly bought from Aristo Craft. I have had the system for almost five years and I’m thrilled with it! [:D] It’s one big reason I’m not switching to DCC. The emergency switch at the bottom is a life saver, too! Not to mention the very fine speed control changes you can’t do with other systems. (I just tried this month-Infrared sucks!)
I placed a radio receiver between each of my two power packs. The hand held control unit can be switched back and forth between the two. Using block wiring, I can run two trains simultaneously, switching quickly back and forth for speed adjustments as needed. All the plugs are in a power strip so I can shut everything off with one switch after play time.
I’d highly recommend this system to anyone! Feel free to email with specific questions: dragon@ozarkmountains.com
May I also add that the joy of walking along beside your freight train and controlling it’s actions without being tied to a control panel is something straight from heaven! [angel][:D]
Just picture switching at eye level with hand thrown turnouts and a slow speed engine!
I too am looking very closley at Crest. What looks great is that it doesent have the problems that DCC has, dirty track and loss of signal, or other short circuit problems with frogs and wheelsets. Also looking at a 10 amp filtered dc trasformer, approx 57 bucks. Over all it sounds great to me but wondering why its not used more…by hobbyist. MR needs to do an article on it…I’m presently using three transformers on 120 feet of track and do not want to invest in a lot of boosters and other add ons as on a tight budget. I too would love to hear about the pros and cons.
I go along with “cacole”. I work in the software business. One of the things technical people are prone to is choosing technology because of the neat features. There is more to it. Does it have momemntum? no not that kind: how many people use it? is the number growing? how many forums and other sources of info are there on it? if I take my train down to a club to run, can I? etc etc You can be a rugged loner if you want but you will find answers harder to come by and one day you may find th emnaufacturer gone and parts and new components non existent.
In response to some of the points made:
I got a hint from one comment that maybe Crest only works with one train and you still need block control to run multiple trains? If so it sounds to me like combining the worst features of DC and DCC: more complex gear, on-board componetns required in the loco, and still need miles of complex wiring and switches and can’t get the locos up close to each other…
As to DCC being finnicky about cleanliness and frogs etc… yes it is but really it just requires the standards we should work to anyway and doesn’t forgive sloppiness. Once you get track to DCC standard you will experience levels of reliability that allow us to enjoy what MR is really all about: running trains.
Functionally, the Crest system for HO is like DCC in all but one aspect. With the Crest HO system the signal is radio to each locomotive (several real models can be wired together to form one locomotive for control purposes). Power can come from the track or batteries. A Crest equipped locomotive can run on a DCC layout - no issues.
DCC, the signal gets to the locomotive through the rails.
Currently, DCC supports more locomotive addresses.
The Large Scale Crest system is somewhat different, in that it is radio control of the power pack, rather than r/c of the train.
The biggest issue with the Crest system, as mentioned several times above, is that it is sole sourced.
nfmisso, are you sure that’s not backwards? My system for my HO railroad controls two power pack’s current to the rails via block wiring. I thought the larger scales were loco direct via engine mounted radio receivers.
Let me say again how much I enjoy my radio control system. It’s wire free, very accurate in its control, and transmits from anywhere in my house. I’ve tried other forms of direct current control including infrared, but this one beats them all. Cheaper than DCC, too. I can only keep up with two trains at a time, anyway.
My N-scale Plainfield Lines layout was wired for cab control. It has with about 60 feet of linear bench work to walk along. One cab was fixed, and the other tethered. Plugging and unplugging the tethered cab as you walked with your train took the fun out of operating. I bought the basic Crest controller. It took 5 minutes to wire between my existing power pack and track. It works fantastically!! The amount of control it provides for slow starts and stops is great. The throttle works from anywhere in my house. This allows a “ghost” train to operate late at night when guests are trying to sleep in the family room next to the train room.
I purchased the Aristo radio control unit about six years ago. For the size of my layout (modest) and my style of operation (myself, alone), it was perfect. I’m in the midst of building a new, larger layout and will wire it for DCC just-in-case.
Nonetheless, I will no doubt start out with the Aristo and perhaps will never convert.
John Timm
"CREST has developed a on-board Train Engineer System specifically for HO trains. The Radio Command Control (RCC) HO Train Engineer is based on the NMRA (National Model Railroad Association) standards for and compatible with Digital Command Control (DCC) systems. However, where DCC sends a coded signal through the tracks to control locomotives, RCC sends its signal via R/F. This ends the signal loss problem associated with dirt on the track and wheels of the locomotives. Like the On-Board Train Engineer for large scale the track is used as a source of electrical power only.
The RCC HO Train Engineer is designed for the individuals who wi***o “run their trains, not their track”. Instead of varying the voltage to the track in conventional DC operations RCC directly controls the locomotives. Track voltage remains constant ending the need for a complicated blocking system or separate tracks for separate trains. With RCC all trains operate independently on the same track at the same time using a single power supply.
The RCC system gives you the benefits of DCC systems without the complication and costly components. There is no centralized control system or signal boosters. There is no additional wiring that needs to be installed or re-wiring of your railroad. The RCC system simply requires a linear power supply providing clean 12 volts DC, the HO Train Engineer Transmitter and the HO Train Engineer Receivers.
There is often a “Learning Curve” associated with DCC systems. DCC systems can take a significant amount of time and effort to learn. RCC is much easier to learn than DCC systems. Instead
I think there is some confusion here about the two modes supported by the Aristocraft / Crest Electronics systems. In one system (I think the original system but I’m not sure), there is a largish receiver for each block; in the other system (I think introduced fairly recently), there is a small receiver inside each locomotive.
Although I see why some would think that the former system (receiver for each block) is “the worst of both worlds”, in fact this does have a couple of advantages. (1) It allows folks with traditionally block-wired DC systems to obtain some of the advantages of DCC without re-wiring their layouts. (2) There is a clear trade-off: how many blocks do you have, versus how many locomotives?
For example, my previous layout (dismantled for a house move; now planning the new one) had two large dogbones connected by a shared terminal / staging yard at one end, and a small terminal and reversing track between them in the middle. I chose to operate the whole system treating each dogbone as a single block. The terminals had multipe blocks but only one train was active in each one at a time. I used an “analog” Crest system very effectively, because I cycled my (ridiculously large) collection of locomotives through the layout in sets (i.e. this week we are doing mainline N&W steam, next week N&W branchline, etc.) and thus had the advantages of wireless control without the cost and hassle of installing a decoder or receiver in every engine.
If you have a large number of blocks the system quickly becomes costly and cumbersome, especially because of the potential power consumption.
On the other hand, personally, I’d be wary of using the Crest “DCC” system because you are talking about a large investment of time and money for a system that has qeustionable commercial staying power.
I perhaps should also just echo what Archie2 had to say: I think this is a great system for a modest layout that is often operated solo and is never operated by more than two people. Go beyond that, and both DC-block and DCC are more appropriate.
I read your reply and statements regarding your useage of an Aristocraft radio control system for your HO layout. I was told by some that the Train enginner 5470 can be used on my DC Ho layout. I have two main lines with two seperate power sources. It is an old dual DC power pack one for each main. Can I use the Aristocraft Train Engineer with an additonal receiver without purchasing any more power. When I called Aristorcrat they were not much help. They said I had to buy two 24v power sources, one for each of my main lines. I was hoping to use my old dual 12v power pack. My layout is big, and I want to be able to walk around it with not a lot of hassle. I still do things the old fashion way. Thanks, Jim
You need to ask yourself what type of operation you will have, multiple locomotives at a time or one at a time, or somewhere in between.
Crest systems work with HO and are wireless. You can walk along with your train. If your layout is spread out, you will want wireless. When you talk about DCC, you need to talk about wireless systems to be comparable. Up goes the price. DCC systems can also use a tethered throttle, but then more wiring is needed (sort of like blocks in DC) and a tethered system is not as convenient as wireless. Infrared wireless requires you to point the throttle in a certain direction I believe, which limits your movement, as opposed to Crest’s RF wireless system.
If you are running multiple trains with multiple loco consists, like a club would, DCC is almost a necessity. If you are a lone wolf operator running one or two trains at a time and have a layout large enough to walk along with the train, I think the Crest system is a better product than DCC and a whole lot cheaper.
Now, if you want sound and lighting control, there are some DC products that work, but DCC is probably what you want. Again, wireless DCC systems, coupled with sound and decoder equipped locos, puts you up into a way different price point than DC and Crest.
There is/was a Crest HO system where you could put tiny receivers into each locomotive, plugged right into the decoder socket, where you could then get the multiple locomotive similarities of DCC. Only needed two wires to the layout and you could control more locomotives independent of each other than you could mentally keep track of. All done by simple RF frequencies and existing technology, instead of programmed pulses through the track like DCC.
Why in the world this system never took off I’ll never know. P
I too use the Aristo Craft/Crest Train Engineer wireless throttles on my HO layout.
There are actually four different but related products:
The orginal Train Engineer, 27 mhz, 10 amp, now available as the #55470, 10 channel version is a track side wireless throttle with 10 channels on ten frequencies. In is usual application it powers the track and requires a seperate power supply. To correct some miss-information, this Train Engineer can not be used by putting a “reciever” on each track block and then moving trains from block to block. It simply does not work.
Aristo offers an onboard version of the 10 channel reciever for use in large scale. These recievers are too large for smaller scales.
There is 3 amp version known as the Basic Train Engineer with fewer frequencies.
There is the HO Train Engineer which uses onboard recievers.
There is the NEW Train Engineer Revolution which is 2.4Ghz and is designed for either onboard or trackside use in large scale. I believe Aristo is planning to offer HO recievers for the Revolution as well.
I use the 10, 10 channel model for HO and have developed my own walk around cab selection system to assign the cab to the blocks while walking around the layout.
A great power supply to use with the Train Engineer are simple regulated 13.8 volt supplies sold to power CB radios in your home. 4 amp models can be bought in the Pyramid brand for $25 and work well for using the TE with HO or N scale.
As others mentioned, these systems do not support DCC sound control. So, if you want sound, go DCC.
BUT, if you want good reliable wireless control without sound, you may want to understand your options with the TE.
Let me conclude by saying a few things, being short on time right now, and knowing
Jim, please understand that Aristo is a large scale company. They do not really understand HO operation. what they where telling you is based on what garden railroaders do in large scale. Your dual pack will not work to power two TE recievers. You need to have seperate power supplies for each TE reciever, BUT you do not need their 24V ones for use with HO.
I use Pyramid 13.8v regulated suplies that sell for about $25 each. These work fine with the TE and provide the perfect voltage for HO.
You cannot put a reciever on each loop and run from loop to loop, it simply does not work. You need to have some sort of cab control like you use with your dual pack. I have developed a walk around cab control system for larger layouts. Its a little complex to explain in words, but not hard to do.
Send me a PM if your interested and I will send you some schematics.
Sheldon
I don’t use sound on my layout, but I use DCC for ease of wiring (which is a huge drawback of a DC Block system…) and other decoder features . 2 wires to your layout and you have control of multiple locos at once.
DCC is for someone who doesnt want to be limited by DC cab control and complex wiring issues (if you want to add a cab in a DC layout, you have to rewire the ENTIRE layout). You dont have to limit the number of “Friends” you have comming over for an ops session. With DCC, you just plug in another throttle (typically, your friends just bring their own)
Remember that DCC decoders have many more features than just light and sound.…you have to include consisting, speed matching, momentum, and advanced motor control (BEMF) which acts like a cruise control for your locos (to name a few). Also, consider that you can actually match any loco with any loco in terms of speed. Yes, you can have your Athearn Blue Box run perfectly with your Kato or your ancient brass piece. They can run exactly the same. With DC, you do not have that option.
DCC systems can be had cheaply (about the cost of 2 DC power packs) and decoders for about 12 dollars when bought in multiples of 10. The systems also can expand (never to become obsolete) with your layout and can be as simple or complex as YOU want.
Anyways, food for thought.
David B