I just read this article: http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2020/01/railroads-unions-butt-heads-on-crew-size-ahead-of-first-national-bargaining-meeting
Is this (any upcoming negotiations, whenever they might occur) solely about railroads wanting 1 person, and unions wanting 2? Or is it more complicated than that?
The carriers want to bargain at the national level, the union on a individual railroad level. Plus there’s supposed to be a moratorium in place that was agreed to by the carriers that they wouldn’t reopen crew consist until the last trainman at the time of signing (protected employee) was gone. That point in time shouldn’t be that far off but when all you care about is cutting costs to funnel more money to Wall St, every penny counts. The union’s position is that they don’t have to bargain until that point in time as been reached.
Some railroads, or portions of them, due to legacy contracts still require a brakeman on trains that do a certain number of intermediate work events. Or require a switchman helper on all yard jobs.
Jeff
I think one person in the cab is insane, even with PTC. I would think you need the second pair of eyes as a check. Also an extra safety margin in this era of sleep apnea when so many have that condition without even knowing it.
FWIW, FAA regulations on crew size are tied to the size and performance of the airplane being flown. Only the smallest of the business jets are legal to fly with one person in the cockpit.
I suspect that the true costs (e.g. counting full costs of delays) are taken into account, a crew of two is probably optimum for all but the smallest trains. Problem is that “true costs” are a bear to determine so are ignored in favor of an easily calculable “cost”. Note this is true of almost all industries. This is not unique to railroads.
Railroads (and, I guess other industries…) have a hard time counting up “soft” costs and savings. My hunch is that railroads aren’t ready for one man crews. Trains and infrastructure are still too unreliable and ways to deal with trouble too primative to have universal one man train crews.
They want them, for sure. They just don’t know, or want to acknowledge, they’re not ready.
Based on this “safety” logic, all highway trucks should have 2 person crews. After all, trucks don’t operate on fixed guideways with limited public access. They operate on public roads shared with other vehicles, including relatively frail and vulnerable passenger cars. And trucks actually operate as “trains” in many parts of the county with multiple trailers. Finally, the types of accidents that occur on RR’s by operator error occur far more frequently with trucks. For example, in the Port Defiance Amtrak accident, a train turned over entering a curve too fast. How often does that really occur on railroads (and it will probably occur much less with PTC)? But, if you live in a major city, it happens almost daily with trucks on urban expressways (just listen to the rush hour traffic reports in any large city).
Bottom line: If you’re advocating two person crews on trains but not on highway trucks, you’re not doing it for safety reasons.
C’mon Falcon; there is a heckuva difference between operating a tractor trailer by oneself and operating a two to three mile long train by oneself.
Trucks operate for the most part along routes where emergency services as well as food and rest areas are relatively accessible. The same c
The Texas Eagle, at least between Marshall and San Antonio, only has an engineer in the cab. The conductor is in the transition sleeper or dining car or working the train.
The engineer calls the signals, and the conductor is required to affirm them. But it is just one pair of eyes in the cab of the locomotive.
I don’t know enough about freight train operations to know whether a second pair of eyes is necessary, but Amtrak has concluded that they are not needed in the cab for the Texas Eagle.
“The costs of counting cost more than the costs”
Direct costs are obvious. Allocation of overhead is pretty fuzzy. And then there are those other costs, often unknown at the time, that show up later and paid for by the government, i. e., the public. Recall the Superfund to clean up toxic wastes of corporations. Love Canal. Since 2001, the funding shifted to general revenues rather than from the consumers of products of the petrochemical industry.
[quote user=“Juniata Man”]
Falcon48
CMStPnP
I think one person in the cab is insane, even with PTC. I would think you need the second pair of eyes as a check. Also an extra safety margin in this era of sleep apnea when so many have that condition without even knowing it.
Based on this “safety” logic, all highway trucks should have 2 person crews. After all, trucks don’t operate on fixed guideways with limited public access. They operate on public roads shared with other vehicles, including relatively frail and vulnerable passenger cars. And trucks actually operate as “trains” in many parts of the county with multiple trailers. Finally, the types of accidents that occur on RR’s by operator error occur far more frequently with trucks. For example, in the Port Defiance Amtrak accident, a train turned over entering a curve too fast. How often does that really occur on railroads (and it will probably occur much less with PTC)? But, if you live in a major city, it happens almost daily with trucks on urban expressways (just listen to the rush hour traffic reports in any large city).
Bottom line: If you’re advocating two person crews on trains but not on highway trucks, you’re not doing it for safety reasons.
C’mon Falcon; there is a heckuva difference between operating a tracto
how many trains have you operated?
How many road crossings with failed protection get flagged by a one person train crew?
The last labor contract took three years to hash out and this one will take just as long. Section 6 notices by both sides are only a wish list and nothing else. Any contract discussions are a cause of concern, for now its is life as usual.
We can hear it now . “The engineer can use his RCO backpack”
Or “just creep across the crossing don’t get out”
'Alexa, advance the throttle to run 2 and release the independent"
Of course they will change the rules to fit single person operation. Railroading history has examples of changes to rules over the years as technology has improved.
Take automatic block signals for example. The first ones displaying red couldn’t be passed. Then they could be passed after stopping and preceeded by a flagman. Then it was decided that it wasn’t necessary for the movement to be preceeded by a flagman. Eventually the stop wasn’t necessary, all trains could pass a red (nonabsolute) at restricted speed. Even PTC allows this and can no longer provide positive protection in this instance.
The changes didn’t happen overnight, but over many, many years. No reason to think it won’t happen again for one person crews.
Jeff
An aside: One of the residents in our response area is wheelchair bound after a spinal injury, with very limited use of his hands and arms. We occasionally get called there for various reasons.
On a recent visit there, he gave an order to “Alexa.” I don’t think the ambulance crew member heard him say it, so she didn’t respond, although her name is - Alexa…
I prefer being alone on a freight train… just sayin…
In response to your note, I’m not a professional railroad engineer. I’ve operated extensively at a tourist railroad but that, of course, doesn’t count.
More to the point, prior to my retirement, I was part of the team responsible for safety regulation on two major Class I railroads. In that capacity, I’ve ridden the head end of many trains, both freight and passenger, so I have a pretty good idea of what’s involved. I’ve also seen some pretty bad examples of how the second person in the cab can distract the engineer.
I would point out that there are many trains which are operated today on main line railroads with only one person (the engineer) in the locomotive or controlling cab. Most commuter trains and many Amtrak trains are examples. True, these trains usually have a second person (the conductor) on board, but that person isn’t the “second pair of eyes” you claim is so important, and is normally not even in the cab. PTC is a far better means of providing redundancy than a second person somewhere on the train.
I don’t deny that, given current technology, a second person on a freight train may often be needed for operational reasons – for example, switching en rout