In another thread I stated that I had a small layout on a 3X7 hollow door that probably won’t get much bigger due to real estate problems. The only expansion might be adding another 3X7 door making an L style layout. Presently I have an MTH Z-750 powering it . However there are no ports for accesories. My LHS has a brandy new CW 80 for about $70 and a post war KW w/box for about $125. There is also a TW for around 60-70. What would be the best buy? Would the KW be overkill for my layout? Please help me make a choice Thanks
You will appreciate the extra headroom & versatility in having this with your size layout.
The street price for a CW is $35-$40 delivered on eBay. You could do better than $125 on a KW, but I like buying these locally as you may be inheriting someone elses problem unit buying sight unseen(the newest KW’s are 43 years old).
What kind of Locomotives are you running? If the the Z-750 came from a set, and the Locomotive has Proto Sound 1(PS1), the CW-80 would be your best choice, if your your Locomotive has Proto Sound 2 (PS2) then the CW-80 would be a Bad choice. with PS1 and PS2 locomotives you NEED both a BELL (the TW and KW don’t have, IIRC) and a Whistle control to access all of their functions. PS1 locomotives should run fine and play nicely with a CW-80, PS2 locomotives need a PURE SINE WAVE power output to behave properly, the CW-80 puts out a CHOPPED Sine current, this will not harm (to the best of MY knowledge) a PS2 locomotive, but it does sometimes confuse the electronics in a PS2 locomotive, often the Horn/Whistle will blow incessantly when run with a CW-80.
I personally am a Big Fan of the often maligned CW-80, the chopped sine current is it’s biggest drawback, but that is only an issue, as far as I know, with PS2 locomotives, I don’t know of any others that have issues with the chopped sine current. If you have smaller locomotives, such as the K Line 0-4-0T Porters and Plymouth switchers, or RMT Beeps, the CW-80 DOES have a near zero minimum starting voltage, where as the others will all probably have a Min voltage of 6-7 volts. With a 6-7 volt minimum, it can be impossible to start and/or couple them smoothly. With low draw locomotives (even my Lionel Mikado jr prefers the CW) this can become VERY FRUSTRATING (I know this from experience) The CW-80 can often be found on ebay for $30-35 plus $10-15 shipping, from break setters. If you can talk your LHS down to $60-65, it might be worth it to get it locally, and if new (should be for that price) to also get a factory warranty with it.
As you already have noticed, MTH transformers don’t give you any accessory outputs until you get to the Z-1000, and that only has a Fixed 14V output. The CW-80 Gives you an easily adjustable output
The locomotives I am running are mosly post war- 671, 2026, Marx 666. Newer tend to be Lionel starter set 442 and an early MTH F3 with loco sounds. If I do expand the roster itwould probably be with another post war loco or a Williams repro of a post war loco. I do not plan on buying or running any current Lionel or MTH locos. I assume the CW-80 would handle what I have and anything in the future. I tried a 1033 a year ago but it might have been bad unit, post war ran sluggish and would come to a stop when the whistle was activated. I thought if the CW-80 was similar in performance to my Z-750 it might be the better choice. The KW I would assume would do the same but I keep thinking it would be overkill and I read in some of the magazine articles that the newer transformers even the smaller ones are better than the post war. So I am somewhat confused and looking for advice. Thanks
There are so many issues here that the mind boggles: I have to disagree with some of what has been posted above.
First, the Lionel CW-80 is not and never has been on the MTH list of recommended transformers. While I have no experience with PS2, I have never been able to get my PS1 to budge with a CW-80 in several tries, including all the “workarounds” that I’ve seen. It works fine on ZW, KW, 1033, etc. My several locos with MTH LocoSounds work very well indeed on the CW’s.
There are two distinct versions of the CW-80: the early unreliable ones that at best are factory-miswired, and the much improved revised ones. There are reams about this on this forum and others. Most sellers don’t seem to know the difference and/or don’t care. For $35 or any other “bargain” price, you would be very likely to get an early one. Even if it’s brand new you don’t want one.
The KW is a good transformer for post-war trains, but none has been built since around 1960, It offers both more power and higher voltage to the track than do CW-80’s or 1033’s, and can be hooked up to throttle down to near-zero which might help run modern locos. You will almost certainly need to replace the power cord. Whether a given train will speed up, slow down, or maintain speed when the whistle button is pressed depends on too many factors for me to consider in this post. You can add an external bell button should you need one. I have a KW that developed a serious hum, which I managed to quiet down by via a liberal coating of high-quality epoxy resin.on the ends of the steel laminations. You may have to replace the whistle rectifier and/or circuit-breaker.
There is no affordable perfect universal transformer,* in my opinion. As a general rule, I like to run postwar trains with postwar transformers, and modern trains with modern transformers.
I think that if you can find the Atlas O transformer, it may be the best for you. 80 watts output, variable from 0 to 18V, accessory output variable from 7-16 volts. Has bell & whistle buttons in addition to direction button. MSRP 84$.
Some of us like the CW80, I do not simply due to the fact that the bell & whistle on the CW80 will not operate properly the sequences that MTH engines use for conventional operation. Other than that, it’s a good medium output unit.
I have an MTH Locosounds steam turbine loco and it runs fine with CW80. However, my MTH transformer broke while the engine was locked in forward only and the CW80 will not change codes using bell/whistle combinations. So keep you MTH transformer if you get another brand to make sure you have something to change codes.
No, the CW is not on the list from MTH, I have never had any trouble operating my PS1 locomotives with it, including the remote couplers. Yours is the first experience that I can recall, of anyone not being able to get a PS1 locomotive to run with a CW. All of the past issues that I have heard of, or Experienced regarding the CW, and MTH were with PS2 Locomotives. PS2 locomtives are inconsistent at best when it comes to how they behave with a CW. The most common issue is that the CW, will work the Whistle/Horn and Bell, but those controls wont activate the PS2 features that use those buttons in sequence. Another common issue, again with PS2 is that the Whistle/Horn may sound incessantly, when run with a CW. I have several PS1 and PS2 locomotives, and all will run with a CW, but with the PS2, some run just fine, while others have the Whistle/Horn issue, with no rhyme or reason as which play nicely with the CW and which do not.
The CW-80 and the Powder Puff (Power Max and Power Max Plus) are the only transformers that I KNOW of that use the CHOPPED SINE WAVE current, that seems to so confuse some MTH Locomotives. There MAY be others that I don’t know about, if running, or planning on running MTH locomotives it would be very advisible to check to see if a transformer puts out a PURE SINE or CHOPPED SINE current before buying it.
I get the feeling, my last post may have been taken wrong. I meant no offense, and I Hope that none was taken. I was only relating my own experiences, and those that I have heard (mainly here on this forum) I was interested to hear that you have had that kind of trouble with a CW/PS1 combination, as I can’t recall anyone else having a similar problem, but I Don’t doubt your word at all.
I see “chopped” used a lot on the forum to describe the CW80. The technique that the CW80 uses is properly called “phase control”. “Chopping” is a different technique used for an entirely different purpose.
I am a Guilty party to that offense, that is the term I have heard used (evidently incorrectly) to describe the output of the CW-80, especially in regards to it’s issues when used with SOME MTH locomotives. I again Thank You for sharing Your Knowledge on this forum, as again you have taught me something new.
I am more than confident that I am not the only person who has ever had a problem with the Lionel CW-80 and some MTH locomotives with PS1.
All one has to do is to search a toy train forum with decent archives, even this one, using various combinations of PS1, CW-80, etc, singly or together. With just a little patience, you will find all manner of posts (some drivel, some absolutely on the mark) on this very subject.
(For the record, my single RailKing locomotive with PS1 dates from 1996, as I recall.)
It may be better to light just one candle than to curse the darkness; but, is the game worth the candle? I no longer think so.
I have one MTH loco with the QSI QS-2+(very similar to Protosounds) installed. In “auto transformer set” mode, it thinks my CW’s are RS-1/MW transformers, and it works just fine. I am using a 8.4 volt NiMh battery for the board.
Given a choice I would always opt for a modern transformer. As an example in conventional mode a modern electronic transformer will activate a whistle or horn without slowing down the loco the way a post war era transformer will. For more power than a CW, consider a RS-1. The RS-1 is a more up to date version of the modern era Lionel MW. The RS-1 has a bell buttton, while the MW has only direction and whistle/horn button. K-Line made a 150 watt transformer the “power chief”, and this also has a bell button. MTH also makes a 100 watt transformer with a wireless remote that has all three buttons. Ken
