Why is it that when you have a light hooked up to the accessory side of the transformer that I lose my forward-neutral-reverse capability? Only goes forward.
Then if I undo the wire from the accessory side I get my forward-neutral-reverse back to the engine.
Am I only supposed to use intermitent buttons on that side? I already wired everything up for an under the bed layout. For some reason I expected the lights to stay on and the engine to work as intended.
What should I do? I didnt intend to use 2 transformers.
What transformer terminals are connected to what rails of the track; and what two points on the track or the transformer is the light connected to? In your reply, be sure to distinguish between the U terminal under the A terminal and the U terminal under the B terminal, as they are probably not connected together inside the transformer.
The CW80 has some “unusual” internal wiring, which may figure into your problem.
rudedog, I had this same thing happen a few weeks ago. Here is my scenario:
(I am at work so I can’t double check my U post, but I believe the black nobby is the U)
I have the center rail hooked up to the Red A post
I have the outer rail hooked up to the black (U) post under A
I have the two lighting hooked wires hooked up to red B and black (U) under B
My forward neutral and reverse worked fine until two weeks ago. On that day I hooked up one more accessory with lighting. Before it was three lighted buildings. When I hooked the forth building into the lighting scheme I lost the trigger for my e-unit. FOR ME THIS ONLY HAPPENED WITH PERCY AND THOMAS!!! My pensy and docksider work just fine. Only e-units Thomas and Percy stopped working. When I disconnected the lights from aux power (B) thomas and percy returned to normal.
So for me, it not only had to do with the CW-80 but also Thomas and Percy. We know that Thomas and Percy had a unique relationship with the CW-80 because of the need of a draw (a light or something) on the track in order for their e-units to work.
This was a very interesting experience for me.
rudedog, did this happen with a Thomas train, or another train. What train does it happen with?
It happens with K-Line, Williams and Lionel engines.
There is only one pair of wires connected to the track for power and NO other wires connected to the track for anything else.
The track is SuperSnap by K-Line and the rail power is connected through one of their track sections which has a small green light where the wires connect. You have to take apart the underside of the (wire terminal housing) on that piece of track to be able to see where each of the wires connect to the rails.
Did that. Found a small capacitor bridging the two wire terminals. Maybe for the little green light? I dont know.
Transformer to track:
(A) terminal, red to the inside rail. (U) terminal under the (A) teminal is on the outside rail.
I have switched those rail wires back and forth with no difference.
Transformer to accessory:
(B) terminal, red to accessory. (U) terminal under the (B) terminal to accessory.
Only the two wires from the track side of the transformer are attached to the track.
Doesnt matter what accessory it is. It behaves in this manner with just one light attached to the accessory side of the transformer. Take off the light and I have the fwd-neutral-reverse back again.
Long shot - the capacitor is puzzling to me. Can you try hooking wires to the track without the track piece with the light and capacitor (remove it completely) and let us know what happens?
It seems like Rudedog and HopperSJ have the very same symptoms. I’m baffled. What I know about the CW80 doesn’t explain this interesting new “feature”. However, I suspect that this strange behavior would not affect its performance underwater at the end of an anchor chain.
The interesting thing in my situation is that I CAN use the accessory posts to run some accessories. I have two CW-80’s set up exactly as I described above except that one runs lights and the other runs my lionel sawmill. The one connected to the sawmill runs without a hitch. So did the other one with only three lighted accessories on it, but the forth lighted accessory triggered it. It seemed like it needed a certain amount of amperage(?) draw before it triggered the symptoms.
I found it facinating. How bizarre! I was about to post this very topic theother da, but got too busy. Don’t have an answer, but I plan on running my lights off a separate AUX transformer and will run something else off the CW-80. (assuming it works for that!)
[#wstupid](I just liked this smiley so I included it!)
Because there are now two totally different versions of the CW-80, in order to try to answer questions it is imperative to know which version you have. Please look on the bottom of your CW and post the date of manufacture which should appear either as a four digit number, such as 1104; or a four digit number with an alpha prefix, such as G0906.
The version he has will not make a difference. The only difference between the two versions is which set of posts are tied together inside the transformer. Older ones have the A-B posts tied together internally (what I would call common) and newer ones (starting apparently in late 2006) have the two U posts tied together internally (again what I call common).
One only encounters a problem with a functioning CW-80 if they attempt to treat the two black U posts as a common for track AND accessories on the older units. This is loosely (very loosely) equivalent to tying the A-B-C-D posts on PW ZW together to use them as a common when a common already exists on the U posts.
The CW-80 should be able to power accessories such as rudedog’s light bulb and still run the trains normally. I have used dozens of these transformers with no problems, but I am very careful to check which terminals are common by ohming between the A-B or U-U posts to determine which ones are common (indicated by a short circuit) and then I wire the layout appropriately
At this point I cannot think of a single reasonable explanation for what rudedog is experiencing.
Rudedog, call Lionel customer service and tell them that it is not working right. Lionel has shown they are more than willing to take care of CW-80 problems - typically by replacing it.
With all respect, I think you and the rest are missing something here, perhaps a “sneak path,” perhaps having to do with that capacitor that you were concerned about earlier.
bf - you must have missed my earlier post and suggestion to remove the track with the capacitor which rudedog did (prior to your post) and he reported it had no effect.
OK. At the very least we have established that you have one of the older CW-80’s. For simplicity, it should be hooked up with the A and B posts as “common,” that is connected to an outside rail AND to the common post of any accessory that has any chance of making electrical contact with the outside rail or similar “common” conductor. This includes any accessory with a metal frame that might contact the outside rail, or anything connected to the outside rail.
The U-under-A post should go to the center rail; the U-under-B post should provide power the insulated side of the accessory. This will result in the horn and whistle buttons being reversed, but that’s the price you pay with an old CW-80; even one that is otherwise working perfectly.
As Roy has clearly stated above, on an older version of the CW you then need to make absolutely certain that there is no cross-connection whatsoever between the two U posts – not even a single strand of wire or a “conductive contaminent” such as a screw or staple or the like. Some accessories are essentially all plastic and probably could not cause your problem; but others have a metal base that is used as common or ground, and they could.
In order for the old CW-80’s to cause an e-unit to cycle properly, the voltage must drop to zero, which does not always happen when the throttle is set to zero or the direction button is pushed. It sounds as if the e-unit is getting just enough voltage (from somewhere) to keep it from cycling. If push comes to shove, try to cycle the e-unit by pulling the plug out of the wall, and let us know whether anything will cycle the e-unit with the accessory connected. The old CW’s generally cycle e-units better with a constant load, such as an illuminated caboose or passenger car on the track.
If you want to try to diagnose and resolve your problem you will need to reduce the number of components to bare
As long as people have ideas I will continue to try. But I dont think its ever going to work.
Hooked it up per the instructions of bfskinner but its still the same. Tried it with one passenger car and its still the same. Then I tried 2 passenger cars and it did cycle the e unit but with mixed results. It would go into neutral maybe 3 or 4 times then reverse. Or it would go from forward right to reverse then 5 neutrals. No rhyme or reason.
Im using a K MP15 now but will try a LIONEL Docksider then will try with 027 LIONEL track to see if that will work.
Taking suggestions for a transformer that will work. Did I mention that Im not so happy. Thanks to everyone trying to help. My 10 year old is pretty forgiving cause we been putting off this troubleshooting for 6 months now.
I remember when I was 10. I got a Lionel General set. Great set but engine doesnt run anymore despite still being in great physical condition. I also wanted the Blue Comet set on the opposite page of the catalog. Never got that one though.
Rudedog, if you are looking for another transformer, an MTH Z1000 would be one to look at. 100 watt output for the train, fixed 14V accessory output, and the controller is reliable. Williams has a transformer too — if memory serves, it’s a 125 watt unit. You can still use the CW80 to power your accessories if you want to use it at all----
What is striking about this thread is the similarity of your problems although there are significant differences.
Presumably due to it’s unfortunate reputation, many people simply assume the CW-80 must be the cause – and sometimes it is. But I am struck by the fact that HopperSJ’s transformer worked until he hooked up the “fourth” accessory. I would suggest going back to just the first accessory and seeing whether it can still be hooked up by itself and have the CW operate correctly. If so, remove it, and then hook up only the fourth accessory. If that recreates the problem, it would seem that the problem is with the accessory and/or how it’s hooked up.
It is difficult to explain, but the fact is that with the older CW’s, even when wired up according to the “official” instructions, some perfectly-functioning accessories will work while others will not. The problem is not with the accessory per se, but with the hookup instructions, and a simple workaround is available. (See especially paragraphs two and three of rwmcclellan’s detailed post of Feb 17, 4:12 PM.)
HopperSJ: because it is ultra-important with every question about the CW-80, please post the manufacturer’s date from the bottom of the case for each of your transformers. (Either a four-character number or a five-character with an alpha prefix.) I’d also like to know what these accessories are, what kind of track, etc.
The early CW’s were known to do unexpected things, but they did not do “mystical” things. Their behavior always has a rational cause, although sometimes the cause is internal to the transformer and one generally can’t get to it. So, in my opinion, the sensible approach is the one that the behavioral psychologist B.F. Skinner would have taken: focus on its observable behavior (what it does and will do) and and keep
Lets see what the locomotive is seeing. When you press the Direction Button, track voltage goes to "0’ . The PC board or “E Unit” in the engine is turned off. when power is reapplied it advances to the next mode (Forward, Neutral, reverse, etc).
If you have a meter, is the Track Voltage going to “0”? If not, you have a backfeed somewhere. Maybe a LED used for lighting backfeeding on the CW80?