Dash 9?

Trains Magazine General Discussion
21

Guys,

I think I should try to explain the numbers in EMD model codes, as briefly as I can while pointing out that export numbers have a different meaning to USA numbers.

Initially, up until the end of the Second World War, the numbers in EMD model codes were basically just sequential (although F units tended to use mainly only odd numbers, F-3, F-5, F-7)

With the F-7, companion models were introduced using the same engine (16-567B) and Generator (D12), the roadswitchers GP-7 and SD-7. These were all 1500HP.

With the introduction of the 567C engine (a major change in engine design), these units became F-9, GP-9, SD-9 (and possibly by coincidence the passenger unit became E-9).The freight units were now 1750HP, and the E had two 1200HP engines.

With the introduction of Turbocharging, the numbers became based on horsepower, but freight cabs had pretty much gone away. So for the blower engine units, we had GP18 and SD18 (1800 HP) but GP20 (2000 HP) and SD24 (2400 HP) for the turbo engine units. These all had 567D engines.

Then GE introduced the U25, and the replacement for the GP20, which was initally to be called GP22, (for 2250 HP) became the GP30 which, despite claims by EMD was just to have a bigger number than GE for sales purposes.

The next generation introduced the so-called “Spartan” body style, and were the turbo GP35 and SD35 (2500 HP), while the blower units GP28 and SD28 had 1800 HP. So there was a sort of linking to the horsepower, where the model number was ten more than the horsepower (in hundreds). Double engine units, DD35, were also built.

The change to the larger bore 645E engine continued the numerical relationship for the turbo engines, or almost so. The 3000HP units became GP40 and SD40, and the twenty cylinder 3600HP units became the SD45. The blower units, now 2000HP, had their numbers increased by ten over their 1800HP predecessors, becoming GP38 and SD38. A new locomotive range, with a twe

22

So where did the BL20-2 come from, even though it wasn’t bought buy anyone. Why did EMD use BL instead of GP. Plenty of 20 something numbers left, or even a GP-38-2m? Sounds good.
BL20 just looked out of place in Diesel Locomotive field guide.

Anybody…Anybody.

Thanks

23

Dave,

The BL20-2 has always been a mystery to me for a number of reasons. It was proposed as an alternative to rebuilding of GP-9s, using the original frame and 567C engine. It has been described in different references as “turbocharged” and “supercharged”. The drawings show what appears to be a standard turbocharged engine, as far as I can tell. Exactly why a turbocharger was fitted to raise the power to only 2000HP isn’t clear, since a 567C could more cheaply be fitted with 645 power assemblies and adjusted to run at 900 rpm. However, the reduced fuel consumption from turbocharged engines might be the explanation. Since a GP20 also had a turbocharged 567D engine of 2000HP, that might explain the use of “20” as the model number. Therefore, “GP20-2” would sound reasonable as a model number. Perhaps “BL” was used to emphasise that this was still a relatively low powered locomotive, not a true “General Purpose” locomotive in current terms. Still, I have no inside information, and can only speculate with the limited information available. It is strange that a turbocharged engine would not have inertial filters on the air intake, although this might have been a cost saving measure to keep the rebuild price down.

Peter

24

Hi Peter,

The designations of F units are FT - F2 - F3 - F7 - F9!!!

25

Ulrich,

I did say MAINLY odd numbers. The “F5” was not an official designation, but I understand that it was applied (even inside EMD) to very early F7 units that used some F3 components, mainly electrical. These were built because new designs of equipment were not available in time.

It is interesting that there wasn’t an “F-1” either! I was trying to show that there was a pattern to the numbering in the 1950s, which didn’t apply earlier.

Perhaps I should have said that not all numbers were used and left it at that!

The point that I was trying to make was that domestic and export units used a different logic for the numbering, which should help people to understand the pattern.

Peter

26

[quote]
QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

Guys,

I think I should try to explain the numbers in EMD model codes, as briefly as I can while pointing out that export numbers have a different meaning to USA numbers.

Initially, up until the end of the Second World War, the numbers in EMD model codes were basically just sequential (although F units tended to use mainly only odd numbers, F-3, F-5, F-7)

With the F-7, companion models were introduced using the same engine (16-567B) and Generator (D12), the roadswitchers GP-7 and SD-7. These were all 1500HP.

With the introduction of the 567C engine (a major change in engine design), these units became F-9, GP-9, SD-9 (and possibly by coincidence the passenger unit became E-9).The freight units were now 1750HP, and the E had two 1200HP engines.

With the introduction of Turbocharging, the numbers became based on horsepower, but freight cabs had pretty much gone away. So for the blower engine units, we had GP18 and SD18 (1800 HP) but GP20 (2000 HP) and SD24 (2400 HP) for the turbo engine units. These all had 567D engines.

Then GE introduced the U25, and the replacement for the GP20, which was initally to be called GP22, (for 2250 HP) became the GP30 which, despite claims by EMD was just to have a bigger number than GE for sales purposes.

The next generation introduced the so-called “Spartan” body style, and were the turbo GP35 and SD35 (2500 HP), while the blower units GP28 and SD28 had 1800 HP. So there was a sort of linking to the horsepower, where the model number was ten more than the horsepower (in hundreds). Double engine units, DD35, were also built.

The change to the larger bore 645E engine continued the numerical relationship for the turbo engines, or almost so. The 3000HP units became GP40 and SD40, and the twenty cylinder 3600HP units became the SD45. The blower units, now 2000HP, had their numbers increased by ten over their 1800HP predecessors

27

Willy.

It so happens that I checked the time it took to write that post. It was just over an hour (I type slowly). It was Friday morning here, and I don’t work on Fridays. The only other things I had to do that day were to deliver some locomotive drawings to a company making locomotive models and talk with a rail magazine editor about some articles, both of which I finished with time to spare.

But I didn’t expect that it would look that complicated or take up that much space. I had to check the “Field Guide” a couple of times while writing it. But it is something that hasn’t been explained before, as far as I know, and once I’d started, I felt I should finish it. I’d thought about the subject, but hadn’t made any notes.

I might try to expand the posting into a full article with illustrations, which might make it easier to understand, and more meaningful to railfans.

Peter

28

BL20-2: EMD´s search in new working fields - General overhauls

The three BL20-2 are rebuilt from former BN GP9´s (first owner of the GP9 are CB&Q, GN).

The 567 C engine was turbocharged, same way like the engine in a GP20, . The electric and electronic was upgraded into Dash 2 standard. Including an AC alternator. Cab and hood were built new.

No RR has an interrest in BL20-2´s so they give them into EMD´s leasing fleet.
So the “20” and “-2” are clear. EMD says that the BL20-2 created on the heritage of BL2 as a cheap and like new workhorse!

29

Guys,

There are new threads starting asking the same questions, so I’ll stop waiting for Railpac to post Alco designations and put in my own ideas.

Firstly, Alco has had at least three different ways of describing a given locomotive, but not all were used on all locomotives.

The first method was to treat a diesel as if it was a steam locomotive. Alco’s steam designations were arranged

wheel arrangement
type letter (S for Superheated, C for compound)
the locomotive weight

So this, as applied to a US Army Consolidation gave 280-S-160

When applied to a diesel switcher, of the type known as “High Hood”

you had 404-DL-250 (or something like that)

where 404 meant two two axle trucks (and no coupled wheels), and 250 000 lb weight.

Later switchers and road switchers had four digit specification numbers with an E prefix. This was a second method.

Like E-1661

When they started to build road locomotives, they started a new system at DL-100, where DL meant diesel locomotive and 100 was a model number. This is really a continuation of the second method, because locomotives with DL numbers didn’t get E numbers and vice versa.

The first design built was a DL-103b, a single 2000 HP unit for Rock Island. Later units were DL-105, DL-107 and DL-109. Cabless units were DL-110. These were equivalent to EMD’s early E units.

When they started building Freight Cab units, they started a new series at DL-200, which included the “Black Maria” prototypes, and the post WW II 1500 and 1600 HP cab units. These later became known as FA and FB units, (for Freight A unit and Freight B unit) and in Canada, there were FPA-4 and FPB-4 cab and booster units, where P indicated heating equipment for Passenger trains.

The “F” and similar designations represented a third method of classification.

The post WWII passenger units started a new series

30

So is Montreal still in business. Did any other railroads besides a couple of Canadian ones own a M series?

31

No,

At least, not as the same organisation! Montreal stopped building locomotives more than ten years ago, the last Canadian units being the VIA LRCs (I think).

Montreal was very successful in the export market, and many African countries still use MX series locomotives, from Morocco to Kenya and Uganda. A number of them are still used in Spain and Greece as well, but possibly not for much longer. There were a number of new locomotives built for Mexico and there were TWO units sold new to the Providence and Worcester (which used US-built Alco engines and GE electrical equipment, so they only had to import the bare shell as far as US Customs was concerned).

GE took over MLW and built the 84 Dash8 40CM units there between 1990 and 1996. Changes in trade laws meant they they no longer needed to build locomotives in Canada, and they closed the plant.

I’m not sure, but I think AMT now uses the facility for rebuilding EMD and DD-GM locomotives - can anyone confirm that?

32

Peter your right!

The LRC´s being the last MLW´s. And the plant is now Alsthom´s facility.

But you will see many Montreal built M420´s, former CN`s with the canadian style wide cab, now running on secondary lines.

33

As Ulrich has said, there are now a number of ex CN M420W units operating in the USA (as are some ex CN GP40s, some converted to passenger units for Boston suburban service). This reflects the effects of NAFTA. But MLW only sold the P&W units new in the USA, and even P&W bought new GE units later!

Peter