So I was at a local store yesterday and I picked up an unboxed black Lehigh Valley hopper with no number and no built by date. I assume it’s a 6456 short hopper because it has one dummy coupler and one thumbtack, but the absence of the number stamping in the “LEY” bays of the car is a bit of a mystery. The white LV lettering is heat stamped. It’s embossed on the bottom “MADE IN THE U.S. OF AMERICA” on one side and “BY THE LIONEL CORPORATION NEW YORK” on the other.
So assuming it’s a factory error car, does that really increase the value? It’s in what I would call good condition: nothing missing, nothing broken, just dirty. I paid 10 bucks for it. But is it worth more? I’m not looking to sell, I’m just curious.
The title alone will certainly guarantee we will all click on this thread[:D]
Is it possible that this car was modified by a previous owner? I have read that some people do like the factory error pieces. Either way it is unique, and for ten dollars you really can’t go wrong.
Thumb tack coupler is the round silver metal piece on the bottom of the coupler that is pulled down by a magnetic uncoupling track. Looks like a thumbtack hence its name.
Yes I thought that subject line would garner some attention! Comedy always gets the best results! Not that I’m apposed to dating, but that’s a different subject for a different forum! lol
OK, the so called “Thumbtack coupler” is the type with the round disk that followed the flat “flying shoe” design of the late pre, and early post-war period. However a true “thumbtack” is an MPC device with the original metal post-war spring shaft replaced by plastic. The metal disc for uncoupling was glued to the plastic shaft and truly resembled a thumbtack. In fact, actual flat head thumbtacks are often used as a replacement part on MPC cars. After all, all you need is a piece of iron for the magnet to grab hold of. The name seems to have warped back in time to apply to all uncouplers with a round disk. This car however has the original metal shaft style post-war coupler so I highly doubt it’s a true 1948 car. And since it’s not plastic, it’s not MPC.
The best book I have on hand concerning post-war is O’Brien’s Collecting Toy Trains V5. Unfortunately the descriptions are much more rudimentary in this book than those in the Greenberg guides, but I only have the pre-war Greenberg book. For these hoppers, the O’Brien book doesn’t even make a differentiation between 2 and 4 bay, so I have to rely on Ebay and stores like Trainz to see pictures of what the book only vaguely describes.
As to the question of being from the 1960’s I do have some potential evidence to lend creedence to that idea. My first train set came with a white Frisco plug-door boxcar which has one fixed and one thumbtack coupler. However that car is dated 1957 while none of the other cars have any date at all. As I’m sure we all know, using old stock to make up the cheap starter sets was a common thing at Lionel. My set contains a 237 scout w/tender which I’
The “flying shoe” coil couplers were discontinued after 1945, and were followed by the sheet metal mounted shoe-activated coil couplers. Starting in 1948, flap activated magnetic couplers were phased in, and about 10 years later were replaced by disc-operated AAR(“Timken”) plastic trucks.
On AAR trucks, the coupler “disk”(armature - part number 566-14) is a sintered iron casting suspended/pressed on a short vertical shaft(armature pin - part number 566-60) from a flat spring spring steel bar(spring assembly - part number 566-58). These were never called “thumbtack” couplers.
Thumbtack couplers were an MPC(post 1970) innovation. MPC switched to using thumbtacks very early on after briefly using small rectangular bars on a pin as armatures for their all plastic assembly(early 9200 series cars(and others) were built this way).
Your black LV hopper with minimal markings, one disc-operated AAR(“Timken”) plastic truck(part number 566-50) & one dummy AAR truck(part number 568-50), is a 6176 4-bay hopper and is typical of common 1964-1969 production.
Becky, your hopper is a Lionel #6176 type IX. According to David Doyle’s book. “Black body without new date, built date, Lionel or number on the car. This car was listed in the Lionel Service manual as 6476-100 due to its coupler configuration.” Most of these cars were equipped with AAR trucks with one fixed and one operating coupler. Price range is $10 - $25.
Rob is right that it is a 6176 except 2 bay. I don’t remember seeing any 4 bay short style hoppers. Most of the 4 bay hoppers were #63**, 64**, 65**, 66**, 67** numbers.
As for the #237 engine and set, the closet set I can find is an uncatalogued set from 1965 and was sold through J.C.Penneys. The set # was 3726 / 19437. It included a 237 engine, 242T tender, the (6402) flatcar with cable reels, 6142 gondola and cannisters, a 6014 white Frisco boxcar and a 6059 caboose.
Thank you all! I’m printing all of this great info so I won’t lose it! I really need to get more books, I have Doyle’s 1900-42 Std. Catalog but I need the post-war version too! I’m gonna put that one on my shopping list! And more MPC books! For now I’ll stick the info I just printed into the book I have, O’Brien’s V5.
I guess I looked at the hopper the “european way” and only counted the bays on one side too! Kinda like the way they count locomotive wheels as a 2-3-2 instead of a 4-6-4! lol Or maybe I should have said it only had 2 pairs of chutes on the bottom. : ) Rob, you’re absolutely correct, that’s my car sans model number!
I also picked up a boxed 6257 caboose that same day, but the only thing interresting about that one is that it has 2 couplers. ; ) But I do seem to have a habit of getting my hands on oddball items without trying. I have a set of Santa Fe Alco’s (A & B) without the usual black and yellow striping. Like everythng else I bought them because they were a good price, not because I thought there was anything abnormal about them. But I’ve never found a set like them and they make me wonder too. I probably acquired them 15 years ago and only recently have I thought about how much nicer they would look if they had those stripes. That’s the way it goes, I guess I’ll go look for better books!
Anyhoo, thanks again to everyone who helped me unravel this mystery!
BTW, I was on a birthday shopping spree when I bought the car. And last night I got lucky again and won a James Gang set on Ebay for 30 bucks! I guess this is my year for good stuff!
I would not buy another book by Mr. Doyle. This news article explains:
David Doyle and Paul V. Ambrose Settle Lawsuit
Pittsburgh, PA, December 31, 2007.
The lawsuit filed by Paul V. Ambrose in late June against Krause Publications and David Doyle alleging that the Standard Catalog of Lionel Train Sets, 1945-1969 infringed upon the copyrights in earlier works written by Mr. Ambrose has been settled by Mr. Ambrose and Mr. Doyle. The Publisher, Krause Publications, Inc., earlier had settled with Mr. Ambrose.
Mr. Doyle has issued the following statement regarding this settlement: "In my preparation of The Standard Catalog of Lionel Train Sets, 1945-1969 and The Collector Guide to Lionel Trains, 1945-1969 I made a mistake. Portions of books previously written by Mr. Paul V. Ambrose on Lionel Post-War Toy Trains appeared in my books. Even more regrettably, Mr. Ambrose’s contributions over the past decades to the hobby of collecting postwar Lionel trains was not acknowledged in my books. I have apologized to Mr. Ambrose for my actions and have assigned him the copyrights to these, and other, books of mine as part of our settlement. Mr. Ambrose has graciously accepted my apology. I would also like to apologize to the collecting community.
After what happened neither would I, but I bought the books before the lawsuit happened and they are still a good reference source no matter who wrote them.
BTW, I was on a birthday shopping spree when I bought the car. And last night I got lucky again and won a James Gang set on Ebay for 30 bucks! I guess this is my year for good stuff!
Becky
Happy Birthday Becky. 30 bucks for the James gang set is a great buy. Did the set still have the cowboy figures which often are lost ?
For $2.99 each. The copies were mint condition and shipping was about four dollars each. At the time I hadn’t heard of the lawsuit. I’m on a limited budget, retired, so I find this book seller a great source of needed reference material. Alibris has a large amount of railroad and model railroad books in their online catalog. Alibris is a central source for book stores across the country.
Becky, don’t forget that James Gang engine is DC only. In 1980 Lionel made all of their “traditional” (basic beginner) sets with DC can motors. The advantages were cost and maintenance. If you try to run it on AC it will just sit and twitch.
While the DC can motor eventually took over as the standard, the electronic E-unit makes it possible to use AC on the rails. The conversion from AC to DC is done on the board. Your James Gang engine does not have such a board.
Is that the same Paul Ambrose that did the music for TM’s “A Lionel Christmas”?
I like the TM books but as with the Greenberg I only have the std. gauge version. I also have Peter Riddle’s “America’s Standard Gauge Electric Trains” and volumes 3,4 and 5 of O’brien’s “Collecting Toy Trains” but not much else on post-war and MPC.
Since I’m likely to be buying good books on those subjects in the immediate future, which is best?
I have both of the Krause/Doyle books mentioned in Bob Nelson’s post. I have to admit, I was unaware of the copyright infringement controversy involving these books. As with most things in life, the more I learn about something, I realize how little I really know. Obviously I will still use them for reference, but it is good to know when copyright and trademark issues take place. It also lends a certain understanding as to why some items suddenly disappear from the marketplace.
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