DC Cab Control and Quantum Engineer

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

Three mainlines, three cabs.

Mainline A is directly connected to hidden staging.

Mainline B is connected to the Durango yards.

Mainline C is connected to the Silverton yards and industry spurs.

In operation, Mainlines A and B belong to the DRG, and Mainline C belongs to the Silverton RR.

In operation, I see a train emerging from staging and running Main A, a train running on either Main B or C, with yard ops taking place on B or C, whichever doesn’t have a train running on it at the time. A is connected to B, and b is connected to C, but you can’t get from A to C without traversing B.

Plan is to put a TPTT switch (or rotary gang switch) inline with each Mainline Block, so any one controller can feed any one, two or three of the main blocks.

The question arises in adding the Quantum controller. Currently, I only have one loco with onboard sound, but I can see adding at least one more, but definitely not adding sound to all locos, since there’s a nice background sound system I prefer for most.

In a perfect world, I could switch the Quantum Engineer unit in line between any cab and any mainline block, or combination of blocks. It would also be simple to add a second, or even third Quantum Engineer without having to unwire anything already in place.

Suggestions?

2

Your layout is a prime candidate for DCC. You could eliminate all of the block control toggle switches and/or the gang switch, and you wouldn’t need the Quantum Engineer, either.

3

I like straight DC. No programming, no re-programming, locomotives $100 to $200 less per unit, no DCC equipment costs, no fiddling with putting decoders and speakers into small spaces for poor bass response, in 50 or more locomotives, wire it one time, and then run trains.

I figure I’ve saved at least $6000 so far by staying with DC. That’s paid for a lot of track, locos cars, scratchbuilding materials, terrain, a THX rated 5.1 sound system, and covered my mountain bikes and my full Highpower Service Rifle competition rig.

Besides, I LIKE flipping switches and routing power, it feels more like really driving trains.

Some people might think DCC is money well spent and that’s fine for them, but I’m a DC guy, and have no plans to change, probably ever.

To make this system work the way I want it to, I think that each Controller has to have the option to feed the Quantum Engineer, and also the option not to feed the QE. That means three DPDT switches, with one side of each feeding the QE, and the other side of each DPDT feeding on through, bypassing the QE.

From there, I need four gang switches, one for each Controller output that bypasses the Q, and one for the output of the QE. Each of these can feed its input to any of the three mainline blocks.

That makes the system operational, but has two drawbacks.

One, there’s two layers of complexity, two sets of routing switches, the DPDTs and then the gang switches.

Two, if I screw up, something not totally unknown as history demonstrates, I could end up feeding two Cab outputs to the QE’s inputs at the same time, and I’m not sure it will like that well enough to avoid smoking the QE.

Unless I can get some alternative suggestions here, I’ll probably just put the QE inline with one Controller and gangswitch, and get more QE’s if I want to run onboard sound from multiple non-MUed locos, on more than one mainline block at a time. Wi

4

More power to ya’, Jeff. Personally, I like the fact that I don’t have to flip switches and route power just to run trains. To me, it would feel more like driving my layout rather than my locomotives. And I can have two or more locomotives on the same track and/or block doing two or more different things. That’s realism at it’s best. [:)]

Jeff, I don’t know where you come up with your figures for locomotives with DCC. $100 to $200 per unit? If you already have your THX rated 5.1 sound system, you only need an $11-12 decoder to get yourself going in DCC. (And $50 if you get a basic Bachmann E-Z Command.) For what you’re spending on the QE, controllers, DPDT and gang switches, you could buy a nice starter DCC system and a few 2-function decoders for the same price.

And programing? When it comes to programming, most folks just change the address of their locomotive from “03” to the locomotive # and that’s it. It’s not all that difficult or complicated. Figuring out which switch(es) to flip when I’m in such-and-such a block or blocks is way more complicate in my book.

Again, more power to ya’. It’s your layout.

Tom

5

Well at the Bucyrus club we have a BLI “Side Kick” for each throttle…We have 3 throttles on one layout and the other layout has 2.Both layouts are modular so each throttle/side kick combo controls one track.One is your standard 3 track modular and the other is double track"mountain division".Both layouts are connected and trains can be ran to/from the layouts.

We also have a large yard.

Does that information help any?

The “back” layout.

Part of the “front” layout.

Jeffers,You must overlook the DCC guys…They are a compassionate lot that fails to understand DCC isn’t for everybody nor does everybody want DCC…They mean well tho’.

6

Talk about a mis-informed model railroader.

Good decoders can be had for 12 dollars a shot.

100-200 dollars saved per locomotive? On WHAT planet? Give us ONE example where a DC locomotive is 100-200 dollars less than its DCC counterpart.

A good DCC system to handle your 50 locos is about 300 bucks. And that is for a good system, not a starter one.

So according to my calculations 50*12=600 plus 300 for DCC system = 900 dollars…MAX.

Where do you get this $6000 dollar figure? Keep in mind we are converting 50 (FIFTY) locomotives here. FIFTY.

For DC, how much do your toggle switches cost for your block control? How about running a layout with NO toggle switches for block control. I think you have spent enough money on your toggle switches to cover some of the DCC cost. How much do you spend on each throttle? How much for your gang switches?

I cant imagine ANYONE wanting or able to operate the QE with the scheme you have come up with. It is very convoluted and strange. I had to read it 4 times to understand it, and my brain is wired to understand electronics.

FYI you CANNOT run more than one QE. Only ONE per layout…sorry. If you want independant sound control of your locos…then you will need to move to DCC.

Anyways, it is your choice what you want for your layout. But, I think posting opinions as facts is dangerous to those who are looking for information on how much DCC really costs.

Brakie…he is absolutely allowed to run his layout with DC only…this is his choice…but spewing twisted and slanted information is just wrong.

David B

7

You know I have never seen decoders for $12 dollars a shot…We all know the highest cost is the startup for a good solid DCC set.I don’t count the cheap Bachmann set.Of course one will need added throttles sooner or later…The least start up is $199.99 for the Zephyr…Agreed I seen these discounted to $149.00 and that doesn’t include decoders for EACH locomotive.Even at the now famous $12.00 a shot 20 locomotives will cost a mere $240.00…However at the more realistic discount price @ $22.00 that will soon add up to $440.00 for the same locomotives.Of course the addition of sound will up the basic start up costs.

However,once those start up costs is reach then its smooth sailing.

And we are talking in the range of around $600.00 +/- for start up with a 20 locomotive fleet.

Start adding locomotives and DCC start up can become cost prohibited for some unless one takes one small step at a time or find those wonderful decoders for $12.00 a pop which I suspect is BULK rate and then that to can add up as dependinding on the number of decoders in the bulk package@ $12.00 a pop…

8

…Still no where NEAR the numbers he is pushing.

David B

9

[swg]

10

Do some people own stock in DCC or what? If someone says their dog is sick, someone else says DCC is the answer.

I had a QE wired with DPDT switches to two cabs, and I can verify that two cabs (albeit at only about 50% or less power) did not hurt it at all. The same can be said of the Sidekick. And the same can also be said of the PCM dohicky, DC Master Controller. [:)] I have about 6 sound locos and the rest not. Someday I may add sound to some more of them, if QSI ever puts their system for sale stand alone. Or if one of these controllers will operate a Tsunami, or a similar scenario occurrs.

I have run DCC, and it just doesn’t move me.

11

One Quantam Controller is all you are going to use.

If you attach two, three or 15 of these onto your railroad only the money is being wasted.

If I had all of my BLI engines on the track and I hit the horn button on my Quantam Controller, sidekick, PCM DCC master etc. I think I would be able to start a fine house fire from the electrical overload.

Some layouts DO cost 6000-20000 and beyond. Ive already got about 3000 tied up in my equiptment doohickeys and stuff over the last 8 years or so. Think that is alot? My computer is in it’s 4th generation from an initial retail purchase of 1000 dollars 5 years ago. I suppose I have about another 1500 tied up in it… half of that repair costs. I am glad I do the work myself instead of having a Geek at Best Buy or some local store do it. Much cheaper that way.

Admit it… you love DC but are sliding towards the sound and joys of DCC. Just not done with the protesting like a child being hauled to the bath. LOL

My Tech 4 Analog power pack cost me 55 dollars down at One Track Mind several years ago and it is still going strong on my workbench. This is only the second power pack (Or third, but that is a family dispute I wont re-visit) in 30 years or more.

DCC for me was a one time cost of about roughly 440 dollars and a few more for the power supply. I rely on factory QSI engines to avoid the pitfalls and hazards of installing decoders. Only now Im getting ready to do two of them for pretty cheap funds. I think 100 dollars for two decoders, 20 bucks for two speakers and some wire, solder and shrink wrap. The engines were 60 dollars for the pair. The total cost of these two engines DCC equippted will be in the range of about 180-200.

If I bought two of these at retail already equippted with QSI I would probably spend about 260-320 max for each unit.

No where do I see the hundreds of dollars in savings per engine.

12

Up until August of last year I was also a long time DC user (35 years), with a six cab/22 block system for running the layout. All it took was 10 minutes running a train on a DCC layout to realize just that - I was running a train, not the layout. I loved being the engineer not the dispatcher.

The start-up cost was around $500, including the first 10/pk of decoders, I went with a “full grown” system (NCE ProCab) instead of a starter system for my dbl deck 12 x 23 layout, (inevitably a starter system will end up costing more as you upgrade). I added 3 secondary or “utility” thottles at an additional cost of about $240, but that’s it for capital layout expenses, additional costs will only be decoders as needed.

Conversion was simple, just unhooked one of my DC packs and connected the 2 wires of the DCC system. True, putting decoders in all my (75+) locos will take time, I do a few each month (Empire Northern sells 4-fucntion NCE D13RJ’s for 12 $ each, less for 10 packs).

I model the D&H '60s-'70s, so the simple D13R’s will do just fine, (no ditchlights, stobes, beacons, etc). I may in the future upgrade to wireless, but that upgrade in DC would cost about the same.

I definitely do not miss flippin’ all those switches. The next step for me is to get one of those mini-cam systems and really run those trains from the cab! [8D]

I definitely do understand the enthusiasm DCCers have, once you’ve tried it, there’s really no going back. But to each his(her) own…[:)]

13

Jay,I was DCC and sound but,preferred DC on my last industrial switching layout.The next one I build with also be DC since it will be a one man one horse type operation.

I can swing either way and even suggest DCC in some cases.I am not all that impress with DCC as a absolute power for train control.

14

You’re probably right on a smaller switching type or small “oval” layout. But I enjoy DCC control even solo on my larger layout. I might start with with switching out the yard and assembling a mainline train, haul out the mainline power and hook up to the train, take it out on the main, repeat this for the other main, put a local together and go out and do pickups and deliveries with not one toggle or rotary switch thrown. You just drive the trains.

But sure, if you’re just running one train at a time…

15

The only issue with DCC is assigning engine numbers. I have about 24 taken. Luckly with the SC, I have another 90+ engine assignments free until I hit the end of the stack. I will never have that many engines.

16

JUST DCC? , you are correct. DCC with Sound, and you are not,

A Genesis or Atlas engine with and without DCC/Sound is $100 difference. Genesis is sold as DC (or) DCC/DC with SOUND only. (Sort of says where the market is).

HAVING SOUND installed is $200 +. (Soundboards alone run $100). I think you know this. WERE talking MRSP here - not a do-it-yourself (w. Free labor).

DCC modules run all over the place - Depending on what you want them to do

17

Don, read what he said above. He didnt mention Sound in this sweeping statement. Even with Sound in the equation, 200 dollars difference is WAY off.

David B

18

You may already know this, but I thought I would mention it in case you don’t(also so that others reading it won’t get the wrong impression). The slot limit is not the number of engine numbers you can have assigned, but the number of engines you can have running at one time. I have around 25 - 30 engines and will continue to get more, but the 12 slot Zephyr(it is advertised as having 10 slots, but actually has 12) is plenty capable of running my planned layout because I will never have more than 12 engines running on the layout at the same time. I could have 9983 engines numbered 1 through 9983, and as long as I did not want to run more than 12 at a time, the Zephyr would handle it.

19

Thank you for the clarification. I dont expect more than 8 addressed engines in operation at any one time.

20

Don Gibson has it right.

DCC plus sound locos run about $100 higher than DC from the factory. When you notice that LHSs and others are dumping DC only locos to make room for the DCC units, up to 60% off, that runs as high as $195 per loco price difference.

50 locos, times $100 each, plus deluxe DCC system, plus extra wireless cabs, plus boosters, plus replacing DCC unfriendly turnouts, plus reversing loop controllers, plus PC interface, plus, plus, plus…$6000 is a conservative estimate of the savings. Three $50 MRC 220s plus 10 DPDTs from RS at $3 each makes $180. Plus a QE, two and a q.

Yes, you can save a lot of money if you DIY, until you factor in opportunity costs, and then you’re right back to the same costs, depending of course, on a realistic billing rate for your own time.

YMMV.

Brakie, a pair of Sidekicks, plus the QE, each hardwired to one cab, and all assignable to the main blocks, may solve most of the issues here, but it’s still a fuzz less optimal than one QE infinitely assignable, since for now, we only have one Quantum loco. Thanks for that reminder, I’d forgtten about the sidekicks.

Tstage, to use DCC and do this right, you’d have to have TWO decoders per loco, one onboard, and one stationary. The onboard decoder feeds the tiny onboard speaker, while the stationary is MUed to the ob\nboard, and feeds the subwoofer. No worry if the bass doesn’t move with the train, because bass frequencies are omni-directional in human perception.

But…I’m about 95% certain that current high end decoders will not drive a sub. Bass freqs eat up TONS of amplifier power, and headroom, and I’m guessing that the low frquencies, rather than being allowed to overdrive the decoder amp, only to be un-reporducible by the small speaker, and risk clipping and speaker diaphragm tearing, have been eliminated from the samples. At that point, you have to either give up so