Okay, I participated in the prior DC/DCC thread, and a lot of comments resulted in some searching by me, as I am at the same decision point (or perhaps just a bit past it). First, the primary issue for many of us who may consider DCC is money, pure, plain and simple. Using that criterion, I took a look at several sites: MRC, NCE, and Digitrax. My impression of the MRC Prodigy was that it seems cobbled together from it’s ancestors, with a leavening of newer electronics and programmable flexibility. Yet, I was uncomfortable that it did not reach across the marketplace in a generic and adaptable manner, relative to support for various engines. I viewed NCE, but found that my first impression of it’s website was that it was more discrete in terms of products, but the prices were not friendly to me. The Digitrax website was fairly well-presented, with a lot of specificity about it’s products, tutorials, and other related consumer support that appealed to me. The fact that the Zephyr Xtra is upwardly adaptable for expanded layouts, laterally adaptable for addition of powered turnouts and other adjacent devices, has the ability to operate enough engines to satisfy the smaller layout owner, can be interconnected to DC power packs to treat them as additional control units, had a well-established inventory of DCC modules for numerous engines (for conversion from DC) and can be had for a discount price of around $ 160.00 has caused me to consider this as the most feasible entry point for my participation in DCC operations. Now, I know there are already many previous discussions about the characteristics of one system over another regarding portability and “interoperability”, but mine would stay at home. My plan to expand my small servicing facility/small yard to join with a planned 9x5 larger layout when I retire seems to fit best with Digitrax’ Zephyr Xtra potential for easy expansion later on. I have enough post 2000 engines to easily adapt to DCC and by doing them one by one, it would provide
You have basically nailed all the high points and the primary reasons why I chose the Zephyr so many years ago. Mine continues to be the command station for a system that now comprises 2 x DT402D duplex wireless throttles and associated UR92, 1 x UT4 throttle used tethered or via IR with a UR90, an MRC dual control DC power pack connected to the jump ports,that really young kids use, a DB150 booster, Locobuffer 2 PC interface and a PC running Decoder Pro, an Android phone running Engine Driver throttle app, and a bunch of Tam Valley Depot servo DCC controllers, PM42 power management and a pair of AR1 auto reversers. Yep, it is a very expandable little beast and you never lose any of the functionality. Adding the DB150 booster allowed me to add a 5A power district and still keep the 2.5A power district that the Z was connected to.
To be completely fair, the NCE Power Cab and the current generation MRC systems were not on the market. So at the time the Digitrax Z was way ahead of its time as being the only truly full featured entry level system. Having said that, neither of the later entrants could have been expanded to the degree that the Z has at my house and remained the command station.
Given your criteria, the Zephyr Xtra should serve you well. While I like and use NCE, Digitrax definitely has a more user-friendly and informative site. That being said, NCE does make a very good product. They are a much smaller enterprise than Digitrax.
Tom
If you prefer Digitrax, that’s fine, but contrary to your statement the street price for the NCE starter sets is about the same (under $160). For those who prefer the “power pack” form factor, the Zephyr can be fine – the NCE Powercab is a handheld.
CEDARWOODRON,
Based on the needs/wants you have laid out, you logic is sound, seems ike the Zephyr would be a good choice for you.
Just like my list of general observations in the last thread, I have a few here:
My home layout is wireless DC, many of the layouts I operate on in our local Round Robin group are DCC, most fairly large layouts with wireless Digitrax systems.
At home I use Aristo Wireless Radio DC throttles, and one of the other layouts in the group has them as well.
Having used wireless throttles, DCC or DC, I would never want to be constrained to a fixed base throttle ever again.
I have said before, respectfully, what is the point of DCC if it is not wireless? One of the main points of DCC is to give you more of that feeling of “being the Engineer”. If you can’t follow the train around that feature is compromised - even on a small layout.
Having said that, the Digitrax 400 throttles, with their tiny buttons, hard to read small diaplay, endless wheel throttle knobs, no on/off switch, etc, are the poorest designed user interface in all of model train control - just my opinion.
I would look at Easy DCC and their base station and wireless throttles if I was going to use DCC.
Not the cheapest, but with many things in this life, you really do get exactly what you pay for. “Bargains” are not aways bargains, and popularity is not always the best judge of quality.
Sheldon
Like Tom, I am an NCE user, have been since 1999/2000 when I switched from an earlier command system, Dynatrol, which had limited number of channels but was fairly robust, but the owner/creator was retiring and that would leave Dynatrol unsupported. He did one very nice thing, and contracted with NCE to provide a decoder that could use Dynatrol or NCE with little fuss. That made the transition for me less costly as I didn’t have to do it in “one fell swoop”. So today, NCE remains my control system of choice and I have never regretted it. I have three command stations, one for each level of the layout, and have a large number of diesels running under the system. For example, I have accumulated 50 of the Kato SD40-2 (lots of renumbering of the two Kato had) which I consider the best units in my fleet of around 250 diesels. Easy to convert, easy to maintain with NCE, and I would assume that would be true with Digitrax and others.
The important thing is not what brand you have (others may disagree) but how the brand you have works for you, as far as ease in installing, operating, etc. The main thing to me is to get as many modelers as possible to make the DCC switch, find out how well it operates, and provide more revenue to the DCC guys so that research and improvement will continue.
Bob
I saw the original posting and stayed out of it.
Now that you are swing towards a DCC system here is my input on Digitrax. I started with a used Bachmann E Z command and I was fine with it except one thing. It only had one speed control knob. If I was running engine A at say 60% and engine B was 40% if I switched engines from engine A to B it went from 40% to 60%.
When I was ready to up grade a friend (Simon 1966) bought over a Zephyr for me to try. Did the same-thing as my Bachmann E Z command when changing control of engines.
So I went with there Super Empire Builder because it came with there DT 400. I think the current offering is the DH 400. Reason I went with it is it has two speed control knobs, so going from the A to to the B train is painless and the speed settings stays the same. While I have a good sizes layout (90 foot main lines) I think this feature would help a lot with a smaller layout even more.
I all so looked at buying the Zephyr and adding the DT 400. Zephyr is $160.00 and DT 400 was $185.00 for a total of $345.00 or I could buy the Super Empire Builder for $320.00. So I went with the SEB.
Now, if $320.00 wants to make you gag I understand.
Is your computer in your layout area? If it is, here is a cheaper way to get easy Multiple Train control. Buy the Zephyr and get the Digitrax PR 3. The PR 3 is a computer interfaces and I used it for years for reading, writing and storing CV’s. Sure makes it easy I will add.
Found out a few months ago I could also control the trains with it by my computer! The PR 3 hooks up to the Loconet jack on Digitrax DCC systems, then plugs into your computer by a USB port. Talk about being easy to control each engine! [8D]
Zephyr is $160.00 and PR 3 with the PS 14 (power supply for the PR 3) is around $70.00 for a total
Turns out that I have a brand-new-in-box MRC dual cab control unit that I was planning to use for my DC wiring. The Zephyr Xtra will allow me to interface that to prove 2 additional control devices, which is a freebie for me. My “giant” engine servicing/small yard layout is 7.5 x 2.5, so walk around is more like “reach over” at this point. Obviously, integrating that into a 9x5 larger layout will make wireless throttles very attractive- but, in 7 years or so, when I would start that portion of my operation, perhaps the handheld throttles will be even more sophisticated! As far as connecting the Zephyr Xtra to a computer, I can easily do that in a snap, as I have a small form factor HP (windows 7) with 500 GB drive and 4GB ram that is just lying around and would love to fiddle with the software that Digitrax has for computer operations and programming. Where I am with the layout is, that all roadbed has been fixed and I have only “pinned” the track and switches down for alignment, before tacking them and sighting any feeder wires needed. So, really, I am at an excellent starting point, from which I believe my wiring tasks will be simpler, right? After all, if I run a bunch of wiring off a buss line, I will still end up on my back under the layout fixing problems with DC wiring- and I do not relish the task in my oncoming senior years! Cedarwoodron
Ironically, it is the very thing you dislike that is one of the main things that Digitrax users really like about the system. For me the DT40X series throttles are great. They fit the hand well, the are really easy to run 2 locos with the dual knob, they require very few double key presses (hence the array of buttons) but remain easy to use for all the basic stuff. The continuous knobs allow you to acquire a moving loco and not have to adjust the knob to match speed. The lack of an on/off switch is a serious oversight. However, mine are all modified to have one [:)]
For me though, it is the dual knob. Consisting is so easy with this setup. I especially like running a train and then bringing a helper up on the rear while having direct control of the first.
As always this is my opinion and clearly it is not universal. For some reason, not fully understood by me, Digitrax seems to create the most black and white response. You either love it or hate it, there is not much of a gray area in the middle.
Get the PR3 interface, then download and install the free Decoder Pro application from JMRI. http://www.decoderpro.com/ If you have your PC on a wireless network and have either an iPhone or Android device then you can use the Wii Throttle server portion of the JMRI to have a wireless throttle using the phone. Response is remarkably good. The user interfaces are simple to use and you basically get a wireless throttle for free (assuming you already have the phone) you can read about it on the Decoder Pro page.
Looks like I have my Christmas wish list ( for “Mom”) already written, so I will start reading more on DCC and plan ahead. That idea of using my Android cell phone as a wireless throttle (?) sounds interesting. Perhaps the next preparatory step is to get the proper wiring done as I lay the track this fall. One question- I read about a programming track- is that a separately powered strip of track independent of the layout? I have a Bachmann transformer powered test track on a strip of fir wood that I use when working on rebuilds and engine fix-ups. Would that be useful as a “program track”? Cedarwoodron
I have a Lenz system. Yes, it’s more expensive than many of the others, and they really haven’t added any new features for years. But, it was already a very capable system when I bought it 7 or 8 years ago, so I’m not missing out on anything.
It may seem like a silly reason, but one of the things that sold me on it was the throttle. It’s got big buttons, not little cell-phone buttons. It’s easy and comfortable for my big fingers to operate. Since the throttle is your interface to the system, and you’ll need to deal with it every time you run a train, it’s a good idea to hold the throttle in your hand and make sure it’s comfortable for you.
The “Dispatcher’s Throttle” is all digital, with a display and buttons rather than a speed knob. The throttle holds a “stack” of 32 locomotive addresses, and I think the base station remembers up to 128. You lose nothing by unplugging the throttle from one jack and putting it into another - the trains keep running, and you’re back in control as soon as you plug back in. Switching engines is as simple as either manually entering the number, or scrolling through the stack, as you prefer. You can run a consist from any engine number in it, or from the consist number, which is nice when you want to control speed and sound functions at the same time, even if your consist consist of a non-sound powered unit and a sound dummy, as some of mine do.
Simon,
In theory I understand and even agree with all those “advantages” of the Digitrax throttle, even though I personally am not into the helper thing and have no desire to operate two separately moving locos at once - in my view that requires another engineer - we are after all trying to play engineer aren’t we?
But in practice here is the problem - I’m 55 years and have pretty good eyesight compared to many people my age - but I do require “readers” for small print, etc
Except for the latest ones, the Easy DCC throttles don;t even have a display. Once cna always operate Digitrax the same way. I rarely look at my throttle. It’s kind of nice to have but not a requirement - I can tell by looking at my locomotive if it’s moving, I don;t need to read the numbers ont he display to tell me this.
There’s always the UT4, no display to read there, one big knob and a toggle switch. It was never really the intent for every operator to use a DT40x full feature throttle, Digitrax has always had some sort of ‘utility’ throttle all along - someone just being an engineer and running a single loco or consist does not need anything more. The DT throttles should be reserved for the layout owner and/or someone runnign a hostler job who needs to build and break consists for the road engineers - in an ideal situation.
I’m reminded of the modeler who was featured in MR several times, very nice layotu with lots of carfloat operations. He was legally blind and getting worse, yet he continued to operate and build his layout. He did buy up any and all DT100 throttles once Digitrax discontinued them - they are a serious pain to work with for programming, which is where Digitrax gets the early reputation as being ‘difficult’ because they only work with hex and you need all sorts of key combinations to access things, since there are few buttons. But the display is slightly larger than ont he newer throttles, and it really only displays the loco number and speed, so a greater percentage of the available screen space goes to displaying the most basic information, makign the font size larger. These, he could read despite his deteriorating eyesight. I picked one up cheap (they are still out there) and it mkes a great train running throttle, small liek the UT but with encoders for fine control like the DT’s. You cna program with them, but it takes some deliberate key combinations to enter program mode with one, sicne there is no nice one button
Are you thinking about the late (he passed away in March 2011) Arnt Gerritsen’s Ann Arbor layout?
If so, there were articles about it in Model Railroad Planning in 2005 and in the December 2005 Model Railroad Craftsman.
Smile,
Stein
And on those Digitrax layout I operate on, I RUN to get any availabe UT4R, but surprisingly enough, most of the throttles these owners have are 400 series.
Sheldon
I’m 65 now. I finally gave in and got bifocals about 5 or 6 years ago. Now, I feel silly for not getting them sooner. When we talk about “toggling” back and forth between engines, it’s a lot like “toggleing” back and forth between looking at the trains and looking at the throttle. Bifocals make that so much easier.
Hey, we’re old men. Wear your badges of age proudly.
It is UT4’s that they hand out to the kids to use at K-10 model trains when they have their open houses. Not only are they really easy to use, but they are quite hard to mess up as well. The layout is running both of the radio types now so there is a mixture of R models and D models, though mostly R’s. Sheldon, I am 4 years behind you, and don’t yet need glasses, though that may be denial on my part[:)]. My view of the DT402 may evolve?
I started to weigh in on this yesterday, but chose to wait until I had time to give my two cents. My four sons and I use MRC Prodigy Advance squared on the home layout, HO scale 26’x26’ with 75 locomotives 90% with sound, and we use the Digitrax Chief on the Salamanca Rail Museum layout, N scale 17’x11’. I’m not here to be critical about either, but we actually have a lot of success with both systems. The MRC system is much easier to install and operate, and with the 8 amp booster, we can run four trains on our double track mainline [two eastbound, and two westbound] with up to 16 locomotives running at the same time. Even MTH steamers which can be hogs on the Amperage, can be doubleheaded. I’ve actually had all nine of our MTH locomotives fired up with no consequences. We have nine throttles to use, two wired and seven wireless.There is more compatibility with this system than you might think, all locomotive decoders work with it, and we used NCE switch 8 accessory decoders to operate our Tortoise machines. The best part of the MRC system is the simplicity of it. I can have a new model railroader operating a locomotive on our layout in five minutes. My eight year old son can operate the four mainline freights all by himself with little supervision. To be fair, he’s been running trains since he was four though. And programming is the easiest part as compared to the Digitrax system. Now, I can only give a little info on the Chief because we usit on an N scale layout with no sound, and no accessories. The system is great. It handles everything we run with no problem, if anything, it is really more than this layout needs. There are three PM 42 power managers coupled in, so there is never a lack of power on the layout. We have two DT 400 throttles, and two DT 300 throttles. I don’t even use the DT 300"s unless we have three people operating at one time. I find the Digitrax throttles to be very difficult to use, especially for new operators. Unfortunately, t
If you haven’t already, check out Tony’s lots of good information.
For me the main criteria was wireless operation - being able to follow the locomotive/train. The simplified wiring and sound are nice extras also. Since I don’t use the command bus or signals and do use hand thrown turnouts, the wiring is really simple and cheaper.
I have been using NCE PH Pro R for about 6 years now and really like it. At the time I felt it was the best wireless system on the market.
Enjoy
Paul