I’m returning to model railroading after 10 years off, and need some answers (please).
I’ve been reading some of the threads on this subject, but they always seem to degrade into a lot of people trying to talk someone into command control. With that in mind, here are the decisions that have already been made:
Shelf type switching layout with hidden staging, “mainline” run = 28 feet (HO scale)
Control will be standard DC with tethered walkaround.
Synchronized on-board locomotive sound (diesel only) is HIGHLY desirable.
With that established, how tough will it be to add synchronized on-board sound? Does such a thing even exist for use with standard DC? If not, what about some kind of under-the-table system? Is there a good one available that will provide realistic sound with a minimum of set-up labor?
The manufacturer’s web sites (and I think I’ve hit them all) seem to be long on the sales pitch and short on useful information to educate the customer. Any help will be truly appreciated, before I start mumbling uncontrollably to myself.
I am sorry, but I cannot speak to diesel, but steam is available synchronized with DC from both LokSound and QSI. IMO, QSI is better. If they can do steam I would certainly think they could do diesel. I do not know if the QSI decoders are available separately yet. I thought the Tsunami would run on DC too, but don’t know.
BLI switchers and some other engines I hear are gaining software coding that responds to a DC throttle with resistance. If you advance the analog throttle to get moving, the engine sorta behaves as if it has weight and needs a few moments to generate the fields (With the engine increase in revs etc) before it slowly starts to move.
Apparently they are putting it into steam as well, I think my Proto Heavy 2-10-2 quiets down when you retard the throttle at speed but dont have enough room or track to verify this.
My preference is dual mode QSI decoders. That is how I expect them to behave under analog when Im not using the Super Chief at the moment.
I had a post about this a few weeks back and yes… it did get a little ugly! However, it is possible to have sound with DC. Many Atlas Gold, BLI, PCM, and others have onboard dual mode DC/DCC sound decoders. An additional sound unit, the QSI Quantum Engineer, can operate all of the sound and light functions separately. However, you would need a separate Engineer for each mainline cab.
Another thing to mention, although I am not entirely sure this is true, is that if you have two QSI equipped locomotives in the same block using an Engineer, the sounds will go off for both locomotives. If you want to have separate locomotives have different sounds playing, then they need to be in separate blocks, with separate throttles and Quantum Engineers. For steam locomotives this can normally be ok, as long as there is no double heading etc, but a diesel consist with QSI sound in all of the engines may make quite a racket when you sound the horn/bell while running them in the same block. Once again, I am not sure if the last idea is true, but judging by the Quantum Engineer’s wiring schematic (in series with the throttle) it seems logical to me, but it would be great if someone could confirm this.
You mentioned the question about under the table sound systems. If you’re considering that route, I’d suggest you look into the Soundtraxx under-table system. It comes available for big steam, smaller steam, diesel and electric. I’ve got the “Heartland” steam system for larger locos, and though it is somewhat generic, it does give you a lot of sound options. And the one thing about it is that if you don’t feel like using it during a session, you can just turn it off, instead of having ‘dedicated’ sound in a de-coder.
I like mine, I have a lot of fun with the variations avaliable.
Your best option is Quantum (QSI locos) and Tsunami loco’s. Even though they contain DCC decoders, they are designed to work with DC tracks as well. Please be sure to use DCC friendly switches as well. QSI locos also support controllable sound using the “Quantum” controller. So you can ring a bell, or sound a horn when you want. And yes to confirm, this is all for DC use.
Outside that, NCE makes a stand alone sound system with speakers.
The best are the ones with memory, when you unplug the controller and walk over to plug it into another jack, the train continues to move while you are changing plugs.
There are also wireless DC controllers but I don’t like them as much. Perhaps somebody else can remember who makes them.
If you don’t mind going retro you could watch on E-bay for an old PBL sound system. They are similar to the old PFM units but do diesel sounds in addition to steam (PFM is only steam).
I see other people mentioning the QSI product. I have no idea if/how they syncronize the sound for DC. In DCC the prime mover sound is usually based on voltage to the motor (which isn’t really syncronized), and more recently based on some back EMF readings. In DCC one can go in and futz with the speed curves and sound settings until it gets syncronized enough, but I am not certain one can adjust any of those settings when using DC power.
Yah, seriously. It’s the MRC Controlmaster 20, with a tethered control that is good up to 25 feet. I’ve got it on my DC Yuba River Sub, and it works like a charm.
DIESELS with sound rev up the sound as voltage increases. Period. What gear are you in?
STEAM has ‘Chuff’ syncronization - mostly 4 per wheel revolution - and is obtained by a mechanical function. At 4 ‘chuffs’ per revolution, where do your ‘chuffs’ finally lose 'count-ability" ?
MUCH of what we simulate, also requires much imagination.
Don, on my QSI and LokSound units, the chuff synchronization is strictly electronic. No mechanical links at all. And it is adjustable, but I have not had to adjust mine at all. I lose the four count on chuffs somewhere around 30 smph on a 4-8-4, somewhat earlier/faster on a Mike, and “real fast” on articulateds.
You can program dual mode decoders in DC for consisting, so that only one is blowing the whistle and/or sounding the bell, while all the other steam sounds, chuff, costing, etc., still work with either the Quantum Engineer or the Sidekick. I would imagine diesel is the same way.
Thanks for the info. I was thinking about the under-the-table system, and the Soundtraxx name has come up a couple of times, but the people I talked to weren’t familiar enough with it to give it a recommendation.
Thanks again, and thanks to everyone else for the help. You gave me some good alternatives and made me a little smarter too!
I forgot to mention in the last post- the other DC throttle I was looking at (in addition to the Control Master 20) was the #3500 Innovator by Alpine Division Models.
For DC throttles it is hard to beat MRC, and get the Quantum Engineer for QSI sound, and/or the Loksound gizmo for their stuff, and you can enjoy just about all the sounds you want to in DC.
My old layout had, and my new one will have, a whole bunch of DPDT switches so I can align just about anything with anything. And at less than a buck a throw for the switches, which I already have, and being so familiar with it I can run it in less time than it would take me to learn programming, I don’t consider it difficult.
The prototype’s sync was mechanical. PFM’s was a mechanical cam’s on/off action.
An electronic source’s ‘curve’ only agrees with the wheel rotation, at one point, and as you pointed out, one loses the perceptive ‘count’ as speed increases - in your case, 30 MPH - depending on the engine.
Having one steam engine outfitted with cam sync (4 chuffs per) and others with settable electronics, I came to my conclusions that one cannot accurately tell the difference, once a certain speed (revs) is/are reached.
The Alpine throttle is a quality 2.5 or 4 amp handheldTransistor throttle with ‘variable mometum’. Of ALL the features various DC throttles have, I personally like variable momentum and decay, as #1 for realistic operation.
Not all engines use the same setting, therefor ‘fixed’ is useless.
This is small in the general topic, but I have found that the electronic synch is variable from operating sesssion to operating session. The Tsunami’s are pretty good if you get them right to begin with, but even when I feel I have nailed the QSI’s, next time I power up, or even if I reverse the loco, it seems to slip by about 5%, maybe a wee bit more. So, as in another thread currently active, I have to call it “good enough” at some point.
I agree, too, that much past a speed setting of 25 on my throttles, it is an exercise in futility to attempt to keep track of the chuff rate.
I don’t have sound but am thinking about it. I have one question about sound systems without mechanical synch. My layout has 3.5% grades and it is Oscale so the locos and the train is rather heavy. When the train is going up one side of the mountain it is pulling alot of amps just to crawl, let’s say the throttle is at 50% power and it’s pulling 1 amp (I’m approximating) and the train is going 5 scale mph. Now when it comes down the other side, that 40 lb train has alot of momentum behind it and is actually pushing the engine down the hill. The throttle is still set on 50% but it is only pulling .6 amps of current and it is going 40 scale MPH.
So here is my question, If there is no mechanical synch, won’t the chuff rate be faster on the crawling uphill section (5 mph, 1 amp) than it would be on the downhill section (40mph, .6 amp) when it clearly should be the other way around?
Exactly. That is the whole issue of syncronization in a nut shell. And further, even if the sound is syncronized there is still the issue of the sound of the exhaust cut off for steam (a very heavy labored chuff going up, and a breezy only exhaust chuff coming down), and prime mover revs for diesel (exact opposite - the prime mover should be screeming full blast creaping up and idling while flying along coming down).