Could power-routing turnouts with a frog powered by the points be considered DCC friendly? Or is this considered “not DCC friendly”.
What does Friendly mean? Does it mean Zero chance of shorting? Does it mean less chance of shorting?
Are Power-routing turnouts (where the points power the frog) maybe DCC acceptable, because they’ll work, but if the wheels rub on the wrong switch point you’ll get a short? Does this make them unfriendly, or just a bad friend, or what?
In short, I’m trying to figure out if I could get away without cutting all four gaps at the frog, and make my wing rails and points one solid piece of rail, without extra gaps and jumper wires to the stock rails.
In the simplest terms, a DCC friendly turnout is one with less chance of a short if something doesn’t track right.
Shorts on a DCC layout are considered bad because they can shut down all the railroad powered by a single booster when the booster sees a short.
A DCC friendly turnout typically has the points and closure rails the same polarity as the stock rails, and the frog is isolated. You can run either dead frog or powered frog. A turnout arranged electrically this way tends to get fewer shorts when things go awry.
Dead frog takes no extra wiring, but it does create a dead spot in the track which can be a problem for some locos, particularly older locos that are not all-wheel pickup.
Powered frog requires the use of contacts on the turnout throwing mechanism to route the power to the frog, but powered frogs create a new problem – more possibility of shorts if you run the turnout from the frog end and it’s thrown against you.
Dead frog turnouts don’t have that problem, if you run a turnout thrown against you from the frog end on dead frog, you will either pu***he points open when you reach them or go on the ground … just like the prototype.
Thanks Joe. You helped fill some gaps in my understanding, and added a couple more things to think about.
Growing up with the cheapo Atlas turnouts with plastic Frogs in the 1970’s/80’s, I’m biased against dead frogs. (lots of memories of my tyco engines stuttering through every turnout).
Questions for you or anyone else:
Do you personally use dead frogs? I’m thinking maybe they’re ok with modern loco’s, and I won’t see the effects I saw as a kid)
Do you have any opinions on power routing turnouts, where the points contact the stock rails determine the polarity of the frog? Mechanically, these are very appealing to me for handlaying. Less jumpers, one solid point/wing rail, etc.
you can still use a select control turnout yet get away from the SPDT switch if you use a "Circuitron Tortoise machine " and use the extra contacts on it to power the (gapped) frog…it’s not a manual throw switch anymore, but by using the tortoise, you’re solving the problem of throwing the turnout and forgetting to throw the SPDT switch (or both) …either way you’ll have a short if the points are not lined up correctly or you forget to throw the SPDT switch so by using the tortoise you’ve solved one of these problems…a 50 /50% chance is better than 33 / 67 % chance of creating the short when the points are lined up correctly and you forget to throw the DPDT switch…chuck
I have bought Shinohara and MicroEngineering DCC friendly turnouts and have modified old turnouts (Peco Electro frog, Railway Engineering, Shinohara etc…) to be DCC friendly. Currently all my frogs are dead. I am going to power them when I hook up switch motors. I have mostly Modern Plastic Steam. If you run at medium slow or faster, no stalls. My standards are very high and I like “creepability”: the ability of a loco to creep through trackwork with no stalls. A couple of the Shinohara Curved turnouts (large unpowered frog) have stalled some of the shorter wheel based 2-8-0s when creeping, but that has been about it. My only Atlas diesel (RS-1) and my bigger steam cruise through everything no problem. If you have diesels you may not have to power the frogs. The only shorts I get are when I put stuff on the ground, I have had stuff run through turnouts trown the wrong way and I only figure it out because of the stuff on the ground, not because there was a short…
About power routing: It has a funny way of becoming unreliable after the turnout is painted and ballasted without being hardwired in some way…
I make two modifications to the DCC ftreindly turnouts I buy…I solder the point rails to the closure rails (I use switchmasters so the extra stiffness is not a problem) and I solder a feeder to the frog from underneath the switch before it is installed. Some may consider this overkill, but on my previous layout everything ran great until the paint and ballast. I did lots of remedial feeding on that layout. I’m trying to avoid it on this one…
Thanks for the tortoise tips. However, I’m sticking to cheap, cheap, and cheap.
This means no tortoise’s for me.
When I said “throw a SPDT switch in conjunction with the turnout”, I mean I will hook them together somehow. I’ve seen some cool tricks for this in MR over the years. Most of the issues I have that explain these tricks are pre-DCC, however, which is why I’m freshening up my knowledge for robustness with DCC.
I prefer dead frog turnouts. Easier to wire and less prone to shorts if you run them by accident when they are thrown against you.
If you must use live frog turnouts on a DCC layout (and there are good reasons to not have dead spots in your track), then at least wire an 1156 auto tail light bulb in series with the frog feeder. That way, if you do run a turnout thrown against you, you’ll stop at the frog, light up your feet, but not affect anyone else in the booster power district – they will keep right on running.
However, in this clip, I show how I prefer to gap the track to create train length blocks instead of protecting the turnout frog with the bulb, but the concept is identical. Using the train blocks, you will use fewer bulbs than if you wire a bulb into each turnout frog – the basic effect will be similar.
But take your pick. At least by using the bulbs, a short won’t shutdown the entire booster district.
Joe, I went to Canadian Tire last weekend to look for the 1156 bulbs, but found none. There were many other 12v automotive bulbs, some with numbers near 1156. So I grabbed four numbered 1142. Have I made a mistake?