We both agree that DC or DCC choice is about the end user. What works for one doesn’t work for another. “Railfans” vs. “Operators”, “Dispatchers” vs. “Engineers”, and so on.
So why DCC?
On board sound is nice but it also needs to be scaled for the application. The volume needed at a 5000 sq.ft. club isn’t a good idea in a 10’x10’ bedroom layout. Likewise, kill blocks at engine terminals are a good investment (at my DCC club, all roundhouses use a rotary selector switch for radial track power).
DCC walk-around isn’t just for manual turnouts. We have a mix of toggle-thrown switches and throttle-thrown switches with most being both. This is very handy when trying to throw a switch beyond your current reach…say on the other side of a duck-under.
Both multi-train and multi-operator layouts, regardless of size, can see signficant benefits with DCC over a simple (2+ cab) DC layout. However, one-train/one-operator layouts work just as well with DC, so DCC probably isn’t worth it unless there’s a specific want/need by the end user.
The “neutral” issues.
You say that the wiring will be the same, more or less, for turnout switch controls. Here I disagree; in certain cases, namely for any dispatcher-controlled switches, the wiring for remote switch control is vastly simplified for DCC vs. DC. Yes, for a simple home layout, wiring is about the same as wiring in a DPDT toggle (and isn’t usually worth the effort). However, if you want to control that turnout (and all the others) from another location, the amount of copper required is daunting.
At my club, as dispatcher, I control over 150 turnouts using a PC running JMRI. The entirety of the wiring between the layout and my upstairs tow
OK, a followup on some of the reasons I rejected DCC.
I don’t like any of the primary throttles from an ergonomic standpoint.
I want detection, CTC and signaling, I need blocks anyway.
I don’t like all the fussing to consist locos and un consist them.
I don’t like programing, adjusting, speed matching, Like the consisting, all extra tasks I don’t have now.
I don’t like the process of installing decoders - if I did go DCC I would hard wire all of them and eliminate factory accessory boards - but I’m not, so I won’t.
I’m not replacing all my current locos just like I’m not replacing all my current rolling stock with high end RTR.
These views come from many hours of DCC use on other people’s layouts…
Others will feel differently or be in a different situation and that is fine and good.
At some point I will try to give a brief explaination of how my system works without a bunch of “toggle flipping”…
When I left N scale in the mid 1990s, dozens of undecorated Kato EMD locomotives ended up with my friend Ron in Naples.
He set them up with DCC in sets (consists) of three. The middle unit was de-motored and that is where the decoder was. I think he used HO decoders. The other two units remained powered. There was no consisting. They ran in sets of three with a single decoder/address.
OK, let me see if I can clarify what I have been saying.
TStage) I envisioned a simple hand held control much like we used to have - throttle, direction switch, momentum and brake if wanted. And you wouldnt have to look at them either. Hand held memory throttles… the PC takes care of the voltage control, location to send it, and what locos to send it to. Much like DCC already works, but with a more robust way to go about it and an old style throttle like we all are used too. DCC doesnt shut down volatage when not used. Its constant. A PC could do that easily!
One thing with PC control, it can be as easy or not… as you want it. I spend too much time infront of a sceen too, but thats not how i envisioned using a PC to operate a model railroad. Its in the CTC room, or under the benchwork humming away controlling the layout as I operate a train across the layout. Preprogrammed like DCC and fire and forget.
DHuseman) No, JMRI is not PC controlled DCC, atleast not in the sense Im talking about. You still have to buy todays DCC equipment. Pieces compared to one pc.
Ofcourse DCC doesnt care how many keys you have. That wasnt the point. having that many more, means that many more ‘options’ or “functions” available to you at any given time. IF more control wasnt the case, then all DCC controllers would look the same simple way. Dont use them if you dont need them, but nice to have if the need did arise!
Now I dont know why anyone cant figure out i dont mean DCC runs the paperwork side of it - waybills, schedules, etc. As it is right now, if you operate DCC and you want to have a waybill sys
there are different requirements and limitations for controlling a loco vs other devices on a layout (e.g. turnouts)
the track needs to carry both power as well as communication with the loco and that communication needs to be over a noisy communication path. it needs to be simple
communication with layout devices don’t have these limitations, and there are many more devices.
why would you superimpose signal and voltage for such a thing?
do you seriously suggest sending 100 byte messages over rails?
perhaps you’re suggesting a PC can be programmed as a 5G phone – Its infinite – ???
I considered using programable controllers rather than relays - but at the time it was way too expensive.
So I built a single intergrated system around my goals, rather than all those separate layers necessary with DCC.
The same relay that allows me to throw a turnout from multiple locations also interlocks routes so multiple turnouts are controlled with one button, directs track power to eliminate extra blocks, directs signal logic thru interlockings, and powers frogs correctly.
The same bank of relays that provide progressive assignment of cabs to primary blocks also direct dispatcher permission to provide CTC signal commands.
The relays on my detection boards provide the needed detection logic for signals, power those signals directly and provide train location displays for operators.
One intergrated system rather than layers of different equipment.
Admittedly, things like waybills/switch lists, I stil do with pencil and paper.
As a nearly 20 year member of this forum, let me make this observation. There may or may not have been one or more threads devoted to the topic of DC versus DCC, but there certainly have been a number of threads that wandered into the issue of DC versus DCC. What it always seems to come down to is three issues - - independent train control, sound and cost.
DCC is more expensive that DC, mainly because you have to add in cost of the decoder.
Sound is debatable because some hate it and some love it. On the one hand, I constantly read about operators muting the sound. On the other hand, there are always new threads popping up asking which decoder manufacturer is best, and a bunch of threads inquiring about how to program a sound decoder.
The real issue is independent train control. DCC beats DC hands down when it comes to this issue. That’s why early on I switched from DC to DCC before I got too deep into the hobby.
Of the 93 locomotives that I have owned, I installed decoders in 29 of them, but only one was a sound decoder. Of the remaining 64 locomotives, all of them came with a factory installed decoder and only 5 came without sound, all 5 were Atlas Master dual decoders. So, sound matters little to me but if the loco came with factory installed sound so be it.
You keep talking about using a PC and how bad using a handheld controller is, BUT then you said this:
You don’t want to use a hand held controller but you have to use a hand held controller???
You want 101 keys because 20 or 30 isn’t enough, but then you are actually using a controller with 20 or 30 keys?
Are you reading what you are writing?
What are you using to communicate between the PC and the controllers and the decoders in the engines? You have to have something to communicate between the PC or hand held throttle and the decoders. There has to be some fore of software to communicate the commands to the decoders. You have to have some thing to power the rails (unless your engines are battery powered).
I use JMRI on a laptop to configure the decoders in my engines. I use that same laptop to generate my operations paperwork, both for car forwarding and track authority. I don’t carry my laptop around with me when I operate. I use just a hand held throttle. The communications software I use to communicate is DCC. The system I use to facilitate the communication, that makes the hand held throttles and that supplies the power to the rails is NCE. You can but other brands, you can roll your own, but you still need all those parts in any system.
I will try to use an example. Rather than take the turnout position information to a whole nother set of equipment for the signaling, the actual electrons that light the signal travel thru the detector, and thru one of the sets of contacts on the relay that also operated the switch motor. And another set of contacts on that same relay actually carry the track power thru that turnout to link the proper route, and the actual electrons that energize and hold that relay illuminate the LED’s that show me what position it is in.
Nobody is talking about sitting in front of a PC to do anything, PM Railfan is talking about the PC being the single multi function brain for the whole thing.
Sheldon. To expand on this a bit. First off, I’m not a railroad or MRR technician. I forget, relearn, and forget the exact terminology for some of this because I really don’t use them enough.
Just want to be clear for the reader, the lack of need for independent train control is not relegated to shelf-type layouts, or bedroom sized layouts. The space used is simply a function of what’s needed.
I model a one horse short line or branch line. If I had your space, I don’t think I would change the concept of my layout. I wouldn’t add more trains simply because I had more space. I would just spread everything out (within reason…too much dead space can be boring). Since the op session begins with the shortline taking cars off of the interchange, with space like yours I would probably model the Class 1 dropping off cars. Traverse 20 feet of track…a long train…switch out and drop off a cut of about 10 cars for the branch line, then head forward another 20 feet and back around to staging.
There would be no need to do that with DCC.
Another point. And I’m not technical enough to describe properly, but independent train control becomes less complex when Blocks are big enough to provide separation between moving trains. IIRC, real railroads would have ways of stopping a train on a main line if it was approaching another train…signaling…now days I assume a computer shuts down a train…with several miles still in between. The goal is to not have them run o
DCC has many advantages, and yes, sound can be muted or turned down. It’s probably overated for diesel locos… I think it is especially useful on larger layouts, where you can follow your loco up close to actually see it - something that is necessary when coupling and uncoupling without using the 5 finger crane. Auto-reversers are great too… And I really started to enjoy DCC at our club layout when we installed the Wifi system. No more battery issues, no more running from plug to plug to operate a throttle. The phone is not perfect, but it’s way better than a throttle on a large layout.
IMHO, resistance to DCC boils down to three things: 1) initial cost of system; 2) multiple locos to convert; and 3) complexity of DCC. About the multiple locos to convert, that was my problem about 15 years ago, so I built a dual system with one switch that goes from DC to DCC. Then I realized that there was a bunch of old locos that just did not get a lot of mileage. So I gradually installed decoders in the locos that mattered (not many, when you think about it), and used the other locos for parts. I don’t sell stuff… About the cost of decoders, at $20 per loco, with no sound (that people hate, apparently), it’s not a big deal. Sure, you can go higher end, but I have too many locos to go all the way. I removed the DC/DCC switch when I rebuilt my layout. I also removed some decoders from old locos that did not get a lot of running time, and re-installed them in new acquisitions.
Then there is the complexity of DCC. That is something industry needs to think about constantly. Most of the members at our club don’t have a clue, and just don’t have the abilities, to install/program decoders. Sure, you can buy DCC equipped locos, but when things go bad, most folks are totally at loss as to how to get them running again. Resets: does it have to be that complicated?? There isn’t even a standard way of doing it. How about a single button somewhere (which one company has,
A lot of things have been brought up here. As far as HI-FI sound, I get it as I used to be able to hear sounds no one else could, in fact was told it was impossible for humans to hear them, yea right. When I was young I went to buy an expencive sound set up, it did not go well as I heard all the sounds that the seller could not hear and they were young, finnaly had to settle. Now many years later and doing lots of trade jobs my hearing is in the normal range so the sound from basic sound locos sounds fine to me. As far as cost for DCC or anything, you can pay what you find fits your values, I have never paid over $150 for any sound loco and most of nine are brand new. I am a bottom feeder and for an example in produce they sell a bag of small colorfull bell peppers, I pay $1.50 for these at one store and I see them sold at another major grocery store for $6, same ones. Only thing I have paid dearly for is a Digitrax UT4 throttle because I wanted one more for my layout and they discontinued them so supply dryed up.
In the last 20 years or so, I’ve had about 5 decoder failures. One was totally my fault (my first install…), the others failed after quite a few years of operation, for no apparent reason. One or two were on older motors, that were probably taking up too much juice. I probably installed about 80 decoders, so the ratio is not that high considering the time-frame. I should check the amps more often!
Thanks for the info, I would like to hear more from others, might have to start a thread. Yea, I could see blowing them on install, I did a Proto S1 (I beleive that was the type, been awhile) and I had trouble with isolating the motor because of some excess soulder.
I have wireless radio throttles in DC, don’t need DCC for wireless throttles.
And my GRAVELY is only 7 years older than your tractor. It not only has cruise control, it also has instant forward and reverse, no levers to move or safety handle to hold. Push the top of the pedal it goes forward, push the bottom of the pedal it backs up - automatically in a slower gear for safety.
And it does that with heavy duty gear drive, not hydrostatic drive. Just amazing.
