DCC or not

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
21

One thing which has not been mentioned is the relative ease of wiring of DCC. A good-sized DC layout needs blocks, and toggles to control them, if you want to run more than one train at a time. This is an investment, more in time than money, but it’s something to consider. A small layout can be very difficult to organize in blocks, because the blocks have to be so small they you spend all your time throwing toggles.

DCC, on the other hand, only requires something of this sort if you want to divide your layout into sections for power distribution, and this is a one-and-done effort. You control the trains with the throttle. You don’t control the track. So, the job of wiring is simplfied, and running is much easier.

22

I have 70’s and 80’s era Atlas and Athearn’s that I converted without too much trouble. The 70’s era Athearn’s had to have newer motors but those were drop in replacements for the most part and on the Athearn blue box locos you have to pull the motor anyway in order to isolate it from the frame. The Atlas locos were a simple straight-up hard wire operation. I did two Atlas GP40’s and two Atlas FP7’s along with an Atlas H24-66 and Atlas U30C. I converted more Athearn’s than I care to count.

23

Again, go in person, to a dealer or some other model rail who knows DCC and has preferably converted a DC engine or two. They will set you straight on how easy the conversion can be.

Most any engine controller will work on HO. If you are unsure of you engine’s power drain, make sure to get at least a 1 amp controller though smooth running Atlas engines of the 80’s and 90’s should do OK with a 750ma controller. These 750ma controllers are usually for N gauge only but if you are not hauling 25 car trains around these ought to do fine. I have picked up the 750ma controllers, which are tiny, at some train shows for $12.00 each in lots of 5. New one amp controllers run from bargain discount prices of $15.00 to full list prices as high a $29.00. ($20.00 is the median price on the street)

While many brands of controllers work on most all other brand systems, stick with you master controller’s brand if you can, but NCE and Digitrax loco, internal controllers seem to exchange with each other nicely. It is a matter of the manufacturer rigidly adhering to the NMRA DCC standards.

If you are personally going to convert your engines, you might want to dump $20.00 into the Kalbach publishing compnay’s basic DCC book often found at your local hobby shop. This will teach and inform in many ways and act as a “forever reference work”.

Richard

24

With the exception of the MRC decoders (which are generally referred to in terms not used when in polite company … that is, they’re junk), any major player (Digitrax/NCE/TCS for motor/light control, or QSI/Soundtrax for motor/light/sound*) will work with any system. The only place where you absolutely HAVE to stick with one manufacturer is the throttles/cabs – those aren’t interchangeable.

*note that a lot of people will use (for example) a TCS decoder for motor/lights, and just add the Soundtrax one for sound-only, due to running characteristics/light features/etc offered on one or the other.

25

You are using the term incorrectly. The device that goes in your engine is a “decoder”. The device that goes in your hand is the “controller”. Let’s try not to confuse the newcomers.

Unnecessary. Virtually any decoder works fine with any of the major DCC system. Good inexpensive starter systems from NCE or Digitrax will be fine. Since many new engines now are available off-the-shelf with DC/DCC decoders built-in, it would be impossible to always match to the system (and unnecessary).

26

Decoders are decoders, and they can all be made to work in virtually any DC loco with some care and knowhow…and sometimes determination in cases of old junk. Not all decoders do all things, though, so you must learn what you want your decoders to do in terms of controlling behaviours for your locomotives. Some only have two or three functions, while others provide sound via amplifiers, digital sound files stored onboard, and tiny speakers. They all move the loco, and they all run the lights.

It would be useful to know, though, that not all decoders on the market are DCC. Some, from Mike’s Train House, or MTH, are what they call DCS. There is some mutual compatibility, but a DCS locomotive is only partially functional on a DCC system.

Generally, wiring is the same across systems. Where you must gap in DC, you often have to gap in DCC. You don’t need block control or toggles to get engines to move in the direction you want. The throttle does that, just like in the real world. The throttle command tells the decoder to spin the motor one way or the other, and that’s how you control motion. Pretty simple.

Crandell

27

I still like DC but in building the layout, I made sure it was easily convertible, also any more recent locos are DCC ready. I only have two blocks on a medium sized ( 15x 30) layout.

28

Something we often neglect to count as a cost is the price of dpdt switches as used in DC/Block control systems. When I was wrestling with the DCC / DC decision for my new layout, I checked to see what new dtdp switches cost these days… Lets just say that my jaw kind of fell to say the least. I have a good number that I saved from my last layout, more than I’ll need for my new DCC controlled RR.

Yup, that switch cost was what made me decide.

Cho Cho

29

What ATLAS engines do you have? Diesel or steam? Some of the Atlas diesels from that period were Kato. If this is true, these are easy to convert. On the Atlas ones remove the shell and look at the board inside. Compare to a Digitrax DH165KO. If has the same wire hook up configuration, 2 wires on each end going to the wheels and 2 going to the motor, the motor is already insulated. On some Atlas the board had 1 light bulb in the middle. This will be replaced by the 2 middle wires on the DCC decoder. I know others besides Digitrax make replacement decoders for the Atlas/Kato drive. I would look at the drives in your locos first to see what you have. The Athearn ones are another story as the motors are not isolated from the frame on the Blue Box versions. Good luck. I too converted to DCC from DC. Joe

30

If you want to keep costs down, pick up a 10 pack of NCE D13SRJ decoders. They come in at just udner $12 each in a 10 pack, and are very nice decoders as long as you don;t need all sorts of extra lights, like ditch lights and so forth. While a drop in decoder for somethign like an Atlas/Kato might be somewhat easier to install, in the end it’s just a matter of soldering 7 wires and is very easy to do, for a huge cost savings. AThearn units take a bit more work but even that isn’t impossible, it’s just important to insualte the bottom of the motor from the chassis or else the decoder will emulate a thrown rod and relase a nice puff of smoke and be done. There are special harnesses available but if you’ve already done one of the first things to improve AThearn performance and removed the long top clip and repalced it with wires, you’re halfway there already. Hardest part of the whole thing is probaboly drillign and tapping a hole int he chassis for a brass screw to solder the decoder wire to.

For some special locos and fancier ones you cna use a more expensive decoder with more features, but for a basic ‘fleet’ decoder it’s really hard to beat the D13SRJ, especially at that price.

==Randy

31

BA isn’t kidding; converting old Athearn locos can be, well, shall we say interesting? Isolating the frame from the motor is critical, and could take a couple of tries. Digitrax makes a decoder specifically for Athearn conversions (the DATH series, I believe) that makes things considerably easier.

32

Depends upon how many operators you will have, running trains at the same time. In my case, the layout is small, and I am the only operator most of the time. I can only operate a single train. I have multiple trains made up and on the layout ready to run. But I only run one at a time. I use just plain DC and I have toggle switches to shut power OFF on my various sidings and spurs so I can leave trains on siding and not have them move when I throttle up the mainline.

If I was to acquire some nearby railroading friends, and I wanted to have operating sessions with three or four trains running simultaneously, then DCC makes a lot of sense. Until then, I find plain old DC works just fine.

Should I convert to DCC, I don’t have to rewire. I’d have to pay money for a throttle and maybe a booster and a dozen decoders or more. And take all my locomotives apart and install decoders, not impossible, but still a chore. My MRC power pack would be out of a job, but it would probably wind up lighting structures. DCC is something you can always add later.

33

A few thoughts:

If you like onboard sound, DCC is the only practical choice at this time.

If you want signals, DCC does not get you any closer to to that than DC - with both signals are a complex additional infrastructure.

Most if not all older locos can be converted to DCC, most with relative ease.

All arguments in favor of DCC are stronger for smaller layouts as opposed to larger ones, and like wise are stronger for layouts without signaling as opposed to layout with signaling - Why you ask?

As layout size increases, DCC infrastructure requirements increase and can rival many DC control schemes.

Blocks for signaling can be integrated directly into various advanced DC control systems, with DCC they simply add to the infrastructure needed.

Small layouts with several locos moving in close proximity to each other benefit greatly from DCC, large layouts can “afford” fewer DC control sections (blocks) and can function well with any number of advanced DC power schemes, computer block control, progressive cab control, MZL, etc.

Only the operational goals of the specific layout concept, including the desire or lack of desire for onboard sound, can determine which choice is most economical or which will be most rewarding to the owner/operators.

All assumptions that multiple train DC control systems require “block toggles” or fixed control panels to mount them on are patently false and outdated by several decades.

Walk around control can be accomplished with DC in a number of ways.

DC lends itself to CTC signaling/dispatching, ATC features, working interlockings, and operations with separate dispatchers. All of this can of course be done in DCC, but again it requires just as much or more additional infrastructure as DC.

While small layouts designed for multiple train operation shine with DCC, small layouts designed for one operator and one train realize no benifit from DCC other than sound or lighting effec

34

I was just about to ask a Moderator to move this thread to the DCC sub-forum when I read David’s post. [swg][(-D]

I, too, run DC, and my layout is a room-size one. It’s designed to be run solo, so there’s only one train moving at a time, but that train may be double-headed and using a pusher, too. My operations are sequential, so different trains move in-turn over an operating “day”, which may take many real days or weeks to complete. There’s no sound (had enough to last a lifetime after almost 40 years in a steel mill) and nothing moving that doesn’t have a dedicated and observant operator. [:-^]
I don’t have blocks, as there’s still only a single operator, but I do have passing sidings and other areas where locomotives can be held until needed. All of the switches to control this, plus rotary switches for two turntables and all of the associated wiring (not really much at all, as I didn’t need to bother with a bus wire) probably cost less than $25.00. A ControlMaster 20 added another $100.00 or so, as did a better-quality PWM throttle, so the start-up cost was manageable for me. (The throttle and switches were add-ons acquired later.)

The features of DCC, for what the OP appears to want, are perfect, and I’d suggest that he should take the plunge. There’s likely not a loco that can’t be converted, but it’s up to him to decide which ones are worth the effort and expense. I suspect, after the first DCC loco or two, that many of those older ones will become redundant, resulting in not only a reduced change-over budget, but also the opportunity for some extra cash to put towards the new operating system.

Now, back to your regularly-scheduled love-in. [swg]

Wayne

35

I bought a Bachmann EZ Command DCC system with a GP40 for around $80 a few years back. The reason I did this was to see if I liked DCC and not to put out a lot of cash. I had a large amount of DC locos and converting would take time and money. My bottom layout is a loop with spurs and I have it clipped to just unplug the DC and connect DCC. Everything works fine. My upper layout is a switching layout and I do the same exact thing. It works good too. Now that I have discovered that I like DCC I am going to buy a more featured system. My advice would be to buy an inexpensive setup at first and see if you like it. The Bachmann may not be what you want but it worked for me. Digitrax and others have expandable starters too. As for old loco’s my first conversion was an old Atlas SD35 from the 70’s. Took a little bit to do but works fine and it gets easier the more of them you do.

RMax

36

Sleep Like a Kitten:

I think you could Consider the Bachmann EZ Command DCC system in a package that will give you at least one DCC loco, if not 2.

I have the EZC and love it…in fact I have two. I have a small layout {due to space} of 3.5 feet by 5.1 feet {yes its small for HO} and I have two interconnected ovals with a 4 spur yard inside the inner oval and a 2 spur engine storage/servicing facility inside the inner oval. ALL it takes for this small pike is literally TWO wires connected to it from the EZC to run 2 trains {one on each oval} and I can even play with a 3rd in the engine “yard” while the 2 go round and round! {Providing the amp draw allows-newer DCC locos run on fewer amps than most of the older locos}}. I also have an EZC for the under the table top tree layout for Christmas.

Now, I will grant you the BAchmann DCC oNBoard locos in these packages do not have sound, just DCC control for lights, speed and direction. BUT you can always add Sound locos later.

Bachmann USED to be “train set cheapo quality” but Bachmann has worked long and hard to improve their locos to be good runners and well detailed, especially their Spectrum line. But even the standard line are great runners… I Have 14 Bachmann DCC OnBoard locos! They also,I hear, have a GREAT service department compared to the makers of the more expensive locos! {I have never yet had to find out about service!}

At least ONE guy on here is pleased he KEPT his EZC as his digitrax burns out sometimes and he reverts back to the simple to use and program EZC form his more expensive model. He mentions it whenever hsi $$$$ system crashes.

Here is a package with TWO locos:

http://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?Scale=HO&Item=160Set&ID=200411080

Here are some sets wi

37

While the decision to go DCC; or not, is totally an individual’s choice, I don’t see any reason to not go DCC.

38

I went to DCC a few years back. It was a tough choice, but I had a friend who game me several decoders that he was not using (he had gone over to sound). With these in hand, I decided to make the jump. It was easy… NOT. But it was well worth it in the end.

Yes, I still have my switches to shut down various tracks and I would not get rid of them. I have now added two automatic reversers to my reversing loops and that has changed the way that I operate. Some of my old engines have been retired and sold off and I have added two new ones set up for DCC.

So, make the choice. But if you decide to go with DCC, Athearn and Atlas locos are no problem. Decoders can be added and you will be off and running.

39

To the OP Eric,

Your interest in DCC has been piqued and evidently the responses on this thread have strengthened that interest. Your understandable concern is the desire to continue to run your older equipment. As others have said, conversion of Athearn Blue Box and Atlas of the era you speak are quite possible. But let’s be clear here, in both cases you are looking at hard wired installations that require soldering and wiring skills.

Take a look at http://www.tcsdcc.com/public_html/Customer_Content/Installation_Pictures/HO_Scale/HO_Search/search.html

The TCS web site has a lot of installation examples. Browse around on YouTube, there are lots of installation videos on there. Our old forum buddy Big Al has one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKF7U3ccnco

Someone had mentioned that Digitrax has a special decoder and harness set for Athearn Blue Box locomotives, but this was discontinued back in August, so may not be all that easy to find? http://www.digitrax.com/news/2012/08/20/athearn-blue-box-wire-harnesses-discontinued/

So take a look at these resources and see if you feel up to tackling decoder installation?

I have recently converted a pair of older Atlas, one with the Kato drive and one with the Roco drive, these both run really quite well under DCC.

40

Ok, It’s very clear to me the biggest expense is the starter DCC kit. If I need to start out with a 150-200 dollar investment, I can live with that.

Today I’m starting to take a good look at the motive power I have. I’m going to maintenance all my power and see how each one runs.

I think that’s going to make the final decision easier. I must say not running some of my older Athearn blue box motives is going to break my heart…[:(] I’ve had some of those since I started the hobby 32 years ago…