Over many months I have read the opinions of many experienced railroad modellers with regards to the benefits of DCC and DC. My own preference is DC for that is what I have used for many years. Reading the manufacturers blurb on DCC leaves me confused as to the actual start-up costings of DCC and/or the conversion of DC to DCC. So, assuming I wish to consider DCC and convert some eight (n gauge) locos to DCC, what should I budget for for my start-up costs? You opinions will be appreciated.
I waited too long. I love DCC, quirks and all. My DC layouts were not problem free either. I just continue to learn new solutions.
It took about 10 minuts to hook it up to my DC system. Since then I am upgradeing as I please, but it worked the first night with my DC engines.
I went with an advanced unit and immediatly added radio. I love the radio, I can walk around with my engines. I was in a position to budget a thou, but could have done for less, though I am happy with my expenditure and say the radio is the best toy in the train room.
I recently put sound in an old brass 2-6-6-2. It works, sounds great and can’t be too difficult, I did it. That cost about $80.00.
5.Compared to golfing, it still is cheaper per year and certainly cheaper per minute of fun.
This system is what I dreamed of since I started the first time way back in 1948. I did not believe all the forum guys who said I should change when I started up again, but that was my loss, not theirs. Have fun and let us know what you decide to do.
Start up costs are the cost of the DCC unit and the decoders. Then the question is whether you will be doing the conversions or shipping them out.
A few questions:
What are the 8 locos you are wanting to convert (brand and type)?
How large is your layout and how complex is the current DC control system?
How many people operate your layout at once?
My personal favorite startup system is the Digitrax Zephyr, because it is pretty much full featured out of the box and can be upgraded with more throttles (radio or IR if you like), boosters, detection, whatever you want very easily. That will cost you about $150
So then assuming right off you dont buy any more throttles yet, all thats left is decoders. A good 2 function decoder that I use in many engine is the TCS T1. about $15 at tonys. TCS are great because if you screw up the decoder they will replace it free no questions asked. My personal advice is do not send off your engines and get somebody to install decoders for you. They charge killing labor prices and you might end up spending $80-$100 to install a $15 decoder, not to mention you might wait several months for the installation. Installing decoders is simple, and if you use TCS you wont need to worry about not getting it right the first time.
One thing I have never heard of is somebody that switched to DCC and was sorry, but you hear many people say the were sorry they didnt switch sooner.
Your costs will be based on the type and numbers of actual conversions you choose to do, and on the type of controlling system you choose to operate them. All things being equal, you should expect no other costs for conversion of your wiring, except maybe you will want an auto-reversing unit or two.
All-up, if you do all this and shop around, count on between US$250-500…again, this is dependant on sound vs. straight DCC, wireless or tethered paddles, numbers of locos you’d like converted, and so on.
A strong case can be made for buying decoders and speakers, and installing them yourself. No one should pass up an opportunity to learn a useful skill, and you could save between US$20-40 per conversion as a conservative estimate.
Depending on the system you buy, you may also need a power supply of some sort. My Lenz system did not come with a power supply, but I run it off an old Lionel transformer. If you have a decent system already for DC, you may be able to use that to drive the DCC system.
If you have a large layout and choose to go with tethered controllers, then you will probably want to install a “control bus” where you can plug in the controllers at several points around the layout. You can buy pre-made jack panels for this, or just buy the commercially-available jacks and wire them up yourself.
Decoders vary widely in price, depending on capability. Right now, you would probably have a hard time retrofitting sound into an N-gauge engine that’s not built for it, so plan to start out with plain “fleet” decoders, which are the least expensive. They control direction, speed and the front and rear headlights (generally programmed to match direction, but that’s something you can play with.) If you order several of them at once, you can probably get decoders for around $15 each.
Learning curve is based on your ability to remember numbers (programming) Running the train is easy.
The type system is the key to get what you hope for in operations. (I use Digitrax since it is the one use by loacle people and clubs)
Once you get started with DCC you will be hooked on it and wonder HOW you put up with DC at all. (I started in 1961).
The cost of DCC is based on your research for what you want in a system. ( Ihave $8,000.00 in mine)
The programs from JMRI will make life easy as far as programing the engines.
The wiring of the bus is VERY important.
Important Facts.
You do not need lots of time to install.
The Power bus MUST be Stranded #12 awg.
The feeders must be every 6 ft and #22 awg solid wire
Frogs SHOULD be powered for short engines
Type of turnouts will make or break the railroad. MUST be DCC ready. (DEAD FROGS)
Switch machiines will save you money IF you are going to use signals and indicator lights (Tortoise is the recommended brand)
The difference between a BOOSTER and CIRCUIT BREAKER is very important.
The Booster feeds POWER to the COMMAND STATION. THe Circuit Breaker is BETWEEN the Command station and the rails. this is what breaks up the layout in poweer districts (blocks in DC). You MUST gap both rails between these districts. If you have a 5 amp booster then you have 5 amps for the trains IF you ADD a PSfour (Tont’s Train 4 district cercuit breaker) you STILL have 5 amps only available the difference is if a short happens in Block #1 everything else keeps working.
I can not even think of running what I have on DC. T
I too just went through the conversion to dcc about two months ago.
I too had 8 or 9 locomotives.
What I did was purchased my dcc system. I got a MRC prodigy express, extention plate and another throttle cab. Total investment there was about 200 dollars ebay.
Then I took all my old powerpacks x 5 and the locos and threw them backout on ebay. recovered 125 dollars there. Then I went and started with two cheap bachmann gp40’s with dcc on board. Great running engines to start with, and then over time got two bachmann spectrums with dcc on board. I have be real pleased with how did the upgrade. so all in all, prolly new locos x4 and new controll, out of pocket about 200 - 250 dollars.
I know there are alot of people that are not pleased with the MRC stuff. But I could not be more thrilled.
That seems way too high for what the original poster is discussing. Start-up with a system like the NCE Power Cab would be more like $140 for the system, a power supply for $25, a few plug-in panels at $20 each, and 8 decoders (based on the original poster’s roster) at $20-40 or less each. Probably less than $500 for the original poster to start, depending on the number of plug-in panels needed.
I do not believe that this is correct. Boosters take the DCC signal FROM the Command Station and add voltage from another power supply to power the rails. Circuit breakers (if used) thus go between the boosters and the rails. What causes the confusion sometimes is that some command stations include a built-in booster. Typically there would only be one command station for a layout, but there might be several boosters to provide the track power at various locations around a large layout. For smaller layouts, only the command station/booster combo is needed. And start-up systems like the NCE PowerCab combine command station, booster, and walk-around throttle in one unit – a great way to statrt, especially since the unit can be also be used as a throttle in a larger system.
Let’s not overwhelm the poor guy. Remember he’s in N scale so the current requirements are generally much lower than HO. You don’t really need #12 bus wires on a 4x8. Heck I don’t need #12 bus wires on my 8x12.
Definitely want powered frogs in N scale, this means switch motors with contacts or some sort of throw device with contacts. I’ve been workign on a veryu picky N scale layout built with code 40 and code 25 handlaid track built to finescale standards. The locos are home built, small Camelbacks. The owner already had his main power bus installed before I got involved, it’s all #14 and works just fine. I’m not sure of the overall sizeof the layout, it’s sort of an E shaped with an extra tail off the middle leg of the E, somewhere around 10x14 or so.
Since the locos are custom builds, he has to fit in whatever small decoder he can make fit, usually the pinky-nail size Lenz decoders. For more modern (not in loco type, in manufacture date) commercial locos like Atlas, Kato, etc. there are usually drop-in replacement decoders which are relatively easy to install by replacing the existing circuit board found in these locos.
Extra boosters are likely not required unless perhaps all 8 of those locos will be operated at once. Even the Zephyr can handle 8 typical N scale locos all by itself.
On a small layout I’ve never used a bus, let alone a 12 gauge. Hence, there aren’t feeders either. For a small layout power districts and boosters will probably not be needed either. Just hook the DCC unit up where the DC power pack was connected and go. Really easy.
The whole DCC compatible turnout issue is way over played. I’ve yet to encounter (since 1993) a turnout that didn’t work with DCC.
The frog powering issue is the same DCC or DC. Locomotives with certain wheel electrical pick ups will stall on insulated frogs.
Startup - if you should so choose to go the DCC route - should be quite easy and fairly inexpensive:
Good starter DCC system - e.g. Digitrax Zephyr or NCE Power Cab: $140-150 (discounted). Both are very good system. Both have their pluses and minuses.
Decoders: $15-20 each X 8 = $120-160
If your N-scale layout is small, you don’t even need a power bus. I have a 4 x 8 HO layout and run mine with just two (2) wires hooked to the track. A power bus is the better way to go but not necessary.
My first layout was DC. The layout was a walk around in a 30’ x 50’ basement. I wanted to go first class so I started with two MRC-20 power packs with walk around throttles (Planning on adding additional MRC units later.) I had to run three buss wires (12 guage), one common and two for each power pack. I had the layout isolated into about 20 electrial blocks and used toggle switches to select one power pack or the other. I had an investment of about $350 and could only run two trains.
I purchased a Digitrax Super Chief (radio) and Digitrax Empire Builder and two 5AMP power supplies. This gave me that capacity to run about 10 locomotives (1 amp each) I spent about $600. Over the past few years I have picked up additional throttles, decoders and even another DB150 booser on ebay. I knew about DCC before making the decision to construct my first layout for DC operation. I should have gone with DCC from the begining. I beleive it is worth the cost and worth the operating benefits. When guests come to my layout they just dial up their consist and go. No need to worry about who has control of the block…and try to do helpers with DC.
You will not regret moving to DCC. I recommend Digitrax as a result of my own experience, however there is a lot to be said for the other DCC systems too. Just make sure you get a system that meets NMRA standards so you can use a variety of decoders.
So, you have several of us who assure you that it will be not a lot of money up front, and that it need not be more complicated, in your diagram’s case, than hooking up the same two wires to your power supply.
Ebay may be a good choice, if you are savvy with its ways, and there are sales on internet retail sites if you are patient.
As claimed above, there is no going back once you get a good taste of this fine method of controlling trains.
Byron, you are correct, In Digitrax it goes wall power supply (110V down to approx 14v A/C at) then the DCS100 (command station) then the Circuit breakers (portects the power to the districts).
Unfortunate is it is I do have VERY close to $8,000.00. In the full DCC system. Remeber that I am at almost 1800 sq ft, 135 turnouts with Tortoise, transponding, Plus all the support parts.
Sorry about the LONG POST before but some DUMMY [:I] Did NOT read the post correct and ran off at the keyboard!!!
Wow… I have a 3’ X 6’8" N scale layout and I use 14 awg solid bus wires and have 13 (count 'em, 13) pairs of stranded 24 awg feeders dropping to the bus. Granted, I have a double-track main so divide by half, but still… I’d recommend more than one pair of feeders for a 4X8. Granted, you may have no power problems if you’ve soldered your rail joints, but the DCC signal may be degraded over distance through the rails, so having fresh feeders every few feet helps prevent that. Even with my rail joints soldered, I don’t trust that I wouldn’t have a decay in voltage at the far side of the layout with just one set of feeders anyway.
But, if you have no drops with a single pair, enjoy!!!
This is a bit off topic, but I have run a Christmas HO train from Bachmann in On30 using HO EZ-Track for a number of years. It sits on the floor under the tree, but would not fit on a 4X8…it is too long by about 4". I use several turnouts (snap type), and the single old 10-wheeler pulls a whole bunch of cars, mostly lighted passenger cars, and I have yet to have this squirrely track break contact so that the train stalls.
However, giving due regard to the previous poster, there really is strong potential for any single joint to fail due to wear and tear on the joiner. You must then test the entire length of track to determine which joint is the faulty one, and that can take some time. For a Christmas layout, it is not such a great problem, but for the one you want available and reliable year-round, you should probably divide the track into at least two districts, or gapped sections, and feed each of them. That cuts your trouble-shooting in half, and cuts your down time in half. If you were to solder several lengths so that there were only a single non-soldered join in each gapped section, you could be resonably certain, if you have a failure, that the problem is in the non-soldered join in the section in which the problem lies.
You track can still expand and contract as it must due to changin temps and humity because of the single join in each section, and the rest will be permanently power-secured by virtue of your upfront soldering and feeders.
You’ve had better luck with EZ-Track than I have then. I set up a simple 4x8 oval of EZ-Track, with TWO sets of feeders as a test track, and still had slowdowns. When I built my actual layout with flextrack and all, around a 8x12 oval with various turnouts, I connected ONE pair of feeders and it ran fine until I finished connecting all the other feeders. I did not solder the flex track joints except on curves. My conclusion there was EZ Track is, well, junk, and has issues with the joiners. It WAS the black-base stuff which is not nickle silver, so maybe the gray base stuff is better.
I do agree with what you are saying. As I stated before, a power bus is the better and wiser way to run your layout. What I should have said was having a power bus to run your layout isn’t absolutely necessary. You can still successful run locomotives with just two wires but, as you already stated, it depends entirely on how good the contact is between the track and the rail joiners. (I must have good contact because I don’t have ANY soldered rail joints on my layout.)
Eventually, I do want to run bus lines and feeders to my track sections. The reason for not doing so yet is that I’m still working on nailing down the layout design.
I have mad a big layout with E-Z track, that if you streched the track end to end, it would be about 50 feet. I didn’t have slowdowns. (then again, I did have a nice Spectrum power pack…)