I have never run into this problem before so I am a bit puzzled. I decided to put decals on a Bachman Spectrum Heavy Mountain last night so I could start weathering it. Sometimes I need to just take a break form layout building as I get a little burned out so how do I take a break I go in the work shop and work on trains, yeah I know it’s a sickness but what can I say. So I do everything I’ve always done before clean the surface of the tender and locomotive where the decals will go with a little 91% Isopropyl alcohol on a Q-Tip and clean it off with a soft cloth just to get any oils etc. off before applying the Micro Sol. Applied all the decals just as one normally does and after they are dry I apply a coat of Micro Set. So I check on them this morning and I can see the shine of the decal if you know what I mean. So being as it’s dry I apply a second coat of Micro Sol and will wait til this after noon to see if anything has changed but don’t anticipate that it will. The X factor here that changed is the brand of decals I used. I have pretty much always used Microscale decals exclusively for my trains and just the generic ones that come with kits such as the Walthers corner stone kits etc.but this time I used Champ decals a brand I never used before. Not saying thats the reason for this but just wanted to give you all the information
Surprisingly so it’s the one thing I am fairly good at even with these fat fingers of mine so it’s bothering the heck out of me what went wrong.
I have my suspicions but I want to see if anyone has any explanations as to why this may have happened.
One other question are there any dry transfer systems for HO scale? I know years back I used to use a company here in NJ called Bennett Transfers for Lionel rehabs but have never seen any for HO scale.
I use Champ decals extensively. They are thicker then Microscale decals, and sometimes a stronger solvent like Solveset is needed to get them to snuggle down.
Once clear coated, the Champ decals blend in just fine.
Well the factory finish on the spectrum is a satin type finish and once the decal is applied and dry it appears very glossy and it stands out like a sore thumb. I don’t recal ever getting that type of look when using Microscale and using Microsol & Microset.
I agree with Nick. Champ decals work great but like most decals, required a coat of clear finish to blend them in with the background upon which they’ve been applied. I use Microset when applying them, then Solvaset after they’re in place.
There are several sources for dry transfers, but C-D-S has always been my favourite. Like Champ, they are no longer making new lettering, but have a large inventory on hand, in various scales. One set will generally letter only one car, with various bits and pieces left over. Below are a couple of examples of their products:
When applying dry transfers on curved surfaces, I often put then on clear decal paper first, overspray them with a clear finish, then apply them like regular decals (not a particularly useful tip for anyone trying to avoid decal film, I suppose). [banghead]
The same technique is also useful where space for the lettering is obstructed by raised details nearby, such as on this boxcar. The custom lettering on the left end of the car was applied normally, with the herald and dimensional data on the right end applied as decals:
I reluctantly did give the tender a shot of dullcoat and yes in deed it took away the shiny effect and the lettering blended in much better. I hate using dull coat on locomotives and rolling stock and much prefer using it on structures. It does tend to take away the smoothness so to speak of a surface. I didn’t have any other clear coat to spray through my airbrush and was fuly prepared to strip the thing when I got home but it looks ok and I’ll let it go.
What I believe the problem is or was is that the Champ decals may have a lot more glue on them then the Microscale one’s hence some complaining Microscale are too thin. So maybe I should have let them soak in the water more to remove more of the glue and take away some of the shine. What bugs me is that I have applied Microscale and other decals the way I described and they blended in darned near perfectly Rather then use dull coat I use an extremely diluted solution of grimy black or weathering black almost like a wash and spray on very light coats whihc gives a grayish dull effect which I like better then just flattening the generic black.
Thank you all for your input and the pics very nice work by the way, perhaps I am just too critical of my own work.
Since you have an airbrush, you can always mix Dullcote and Glosscote to give you the satin finish you prefer - try half and half, then adjust as necessary.
Champ’s instructions specifically state to “soak the decal off the backing paper in a dish of water” and to turn the decal over to rub-off any remaining adhesive - it is not required nor desired, as it can cause a “blush” under the decal. For small pieces that could easily disappear in the dish once released from the paper, I soak them in a puddle of water on a sheet of glass, then, once released, hold them with tweezers while dipping them into the dish of water, rinsing away any excess adhesive. Champ suggests applying them on a gloss surface, although I’ve found semi-gloss works just as well. For small stuff, such as individual digits in the dimensional data, they’re okay when applied on a matte finish.
Champ decals are kind of “old school”. It used to be standard practice to gloss coat a model before decalling, so make blending the decal easier, Champ produced their decals with a gloss finish., then it usually only took a light coat of your choice of finish to blend everything. It’s more difficult to blend a flat decal with a glossy surface and vice versa.It often takes mere or heavier coats. And Microscale can’t seem to make up their mind, many sets are flat, but many are glossy too.
Bachmann’s undecorated steam locos, unfortunately, come already painted. You are correct, though: if the model (steam, diesel, rolling stock, or structure) is undecorated (i.e. unpainted), it needs to have a finish of some sort applied before applying the decals. If the plastic is clean, the decal will adhere to it, but it won’t likely look very good.
Well…my Bachmann undec tenders are just plastic…no paint to be seen. The Boilers, however, may or may not be painted depending on the unit. I have a 2-8-0 that is just bare plastic and a 2-10-2 that is a painted cast boiler.
You still need a gloss coat before applying decals.
David, I need to start buying my Bachmann locos from the same place that you do. [:D] I’ve got 12 Bachmann locos in the next room, along with two additional tenders and two boiler/cab assemblies bought separately direct from Bachmann, all “undecorated” but all painted nonetheless. It would be a lot easier to modify them if they actual were undecorated, as in “unpainted”. [swg]
Perhaps some runs were shipped unpainted and others painted but unlettered: all of mine were the painted versions. [banghead]
Would say that once the dull coat has been applied you can no longer add any more decals or is it possible if you’ve applied just a light coat? I do plan on picking up some Dullcote for the airbrush and give that a try and compare it to my wash method.
You can apply decals over Dullcote, but it’s usually a lot more work to get them to look right - the main problem is “silvering”, which is air trapped between the decal and the relatively rough surface of the flat finish. Sometimes, this can be minimised with an application of a mild decal-setting solution immediately prior to applying the decal. Then, after the decal has dried, use a pin or a new blade to cut or pierce the decal film wherever there’s trapped air, applying more setting solution as required. In my experience, smaller decals are easier to “get right” over a matte surface, whereas larger ones offer too many opportunities for trapped air. [;)]
With an airbrush, though, it’s possible to get a much thinner coat and it’s probably easier to just re-coat the area with a light gloss or semi-gloss finish, add the new lettering, then re-coat with the final clear finish.
On the CNW car shown previously, the car was painted with Floquil paints (flat finish) then given an overspray of semi-gloss prior to decaling. I left off the re-weigh data, then Dullcoted the otherwise completely lettered car. Next, it was weathered, mostly using an airbrush, although some cars get a brushed-on wash of thinned PollyScale. I then masked the car in order to airbrush “clean” patches where the re-weigh and re-pack data was to be place, again using flat Floquil paint. When this had dried, I added the necessary data, using decals directly on the flat paint. Once the decals had been set and any traces of trapped air removed, the finished car was given a very light spray of Dullcote to hide the sheen of the added lettering (I don’t normally Dullcote locos or rolling stock after weathering, unless using chalk or pastels for weathering). To finish, the car was given a very light overspray of well-thinned (about 90% thinner) “road dust” on its lower extremities.
Well I went back in the work shop after getting home and picked up the tender shell from the cradle and the dull coat looked chalky if that makes sense and you could wipe it off with your fingers. As far the Undecorated Bachmann’s being painted or not I think your both right. It appears that the locomotive it self is painted as the steam box is a sort of nickle color and up on inspection it appears the black on the tender is part of coloring of the plastic. Why else would the finish on the inside of the tender be the same as the outside? You would see signs that it had been painted. So now it will get stripped and repainted. A lesson that cost $6.00 but hey at least I learned something.
Just to satisfy my curiosity, did you use Dullcoat from a spray can, or did you use it from the bottle in an airbrush?
I’m certainly not an expert on spray painting, but the fact that it wipes off makes me think that the Dullcoat had dried prior to landing on the model. If you used the bottled stuff, did you mix it thoroughly and dilute it prior to spraying? I generally mix it really well, put the amount I think I’ll need in another bottle, and then add an equal amount of laquer thinner (make a 50-50 mix).
That’s the same thinning ratio that I use, maxman. Dullcote can turn white or milky if it’s applied when conditions are too humid, and will also turn white if in contact with alcohol. The fact that it wiped off easily suggests that it either went on too dry (dried before hitting the surface) or that the tender was not clean prior to the application.
After you strip the paint, wash the shell thoroughly,using liquid dish detergent in warm water. If you’re doing any modifications to the tender, wash it again before you paint, then handle it only with gloves or not at all until it’s been painted.
I did use a tack rag on it before spraying the dullcote from a can which now resides in the bottom of the trash can. I believe it may have been a tad too cold but as I was informed to make dullcote they ad talk to clear coats to give it that flat finish and that exactly what it felt like when I rubbed on it. The decals have beet stripped off and now I am debating on removing the rest of the paint. It is a painted tender shell by the way as when I rubbed a Q-tip with alcohol on it on the tender it turned black. thats not going to happen with a colored resin shell. So tomorrow is another day.
I’m not sure I’d want to use a tack cloth on a plastic model. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tack_cloth, the tack cloth is not supposed to leave a sticky residue on the cleaned surface. But my hands always felt sticky after using a tack cloth for wood projects. Anyone else use a tack cloth?
No tack cloth should be necessary - after washing and rinsing, I let the item to be painted air-dry, then paint it. If you can’t paint soon after the item is ready, simply blow away any accumulation of dust (not in the same area as where you’re going to paint, though [;)] ) before proceeding. A clean environment is as important when painting as it is when running trains. I usually allow at least 24 hours between coats, although some brands of paint will require longer. Regardless, wherever the item is left for drying shouldn’t be a place where dust will collect that quickly.
