Hey Guys,
i just seem to be alone here and just cant figure out in these days of micro electronics the cost of the better decoders. I look at the loksound at 109 and run away. Tusnami is no better. I am well aware of the supply/demand concept but dont you think we are getting taken for a ride?
Doug
No.
If you want quality, you need to pay for it. If you want to be a bit more frugal, then you will have to look at MRC and the like, but the experience wont be as nice…
David B
We’re just not mass-market enough to benefit from the economy of scale for electronics. Basically, the first production model of any chip costs a pile of money, tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars. The second one off the line costs maybe 4 cents, and the rest get real cheap. So, you’ve got to sell a bunch to drive the price down.
It’s also a changing and improving market. Older sound decoders like the Soundtraxx LC’s are no longer considered acceptable by some modellers, so they’re out of market share on those. It took Soundtraxx a long time to get the diesel Tsunamis out, and they probably lost out to other manufacturers just from the delay in production. So, manufacturers have to set a price point where they can recoup the cost of development, produce a certain number at that price, and hope that they will sell enough before the technology makes their chips obsolete.
On the bright side, sound is becoming very common in RTR engines. This is good for everyone, as long as they keep making non-sound models for those who don’t want it. Factory sound is cheaper than after-market sound, and the popularity will drive production up and costs down.
Doug,
Trying to compare specialty items like sound decoders to general consumer market electronics will not work. DCC decoders have taken advantage to cell phone technology, but DCC manufacturers have had parts shortages due to cell phone production at times.
General DCC decoder prices have dropped. What was about $60 MSRP in the mid 90’s is now about $15 ‘street price’ for a basic decoder.
Sound decoders are still ‘new’ and the price point has not reached the same ‘balance’ that motor only decoders have reached. If you want to play with the toys that have all of the ‘bells & whistles’ - You have to pay a premium for it. It males no difference if you are playing with computers, audio, cars or DCC - it is priced by what the market will bear.
Jim
OK Boys,
points well taken. I will give these premium decoders a whack. I suppose my next fear is the 40 I already have converted with less costly decoders…dang it. Thanks for the input, this forum is a great place for honest answers…
Doug
Doug, I don’t think you need to fret over a fleet of older decoders. Most of mine are at least 10 years old and continue to do the job just fine-- by the way, they’re MRC and I haven’t had a failure yet. It is true that my new PA Wireless will likely push me to explore their limits, as well as look for the best way to introduce sound on the majority of them. Still, this hobby is a work in progress for me and it has helped me learn to be patient
My plan is to convert older DC units first, a few at a time, and then start the upgrade process on the others. I doubt it’ll be all done when I’m all done and I don’t think that will be anytime soon.
Godd luck.
Doug, look at it this way…just as you find ways to improve your layout by changing and adding things, you can improve your fleet the same way. It wasn’t all done yesterday, and tomorrow isn’t looking very promising…right? Your older decoders are just fine, if not quite doing what you now want a “decoder” to do. If you are interested in the new sounds and some new feature, you had better have tons of money and maybe several tens of hours to kill to convert them. If you are willing to make it a two year project, you can start with that engine…yeah, that one over there. Enjoy it, decide if the others are good enough, or continue the slow conversion.
I do agree with the rationale of the other responders. We are a teensy microcosm in the world of hobbies. Snowmobiling, RC aircraft, and bowling beat us hands down, just to name some obvious few. So we shouldn’t expect big discounts on anything not produced/assembled in large numbers that would find uses in 30M homes in N. America each year. It just isn’t going to happen for us. In fact, I am amazed, and darned grateful, that sound decoders aren’t twice what a good engine costs!
-Crandell
Decoder sound prices are expensive, more, abusive. Loksound is always at 109,99.-, and so on with other marks. Didn´t they recovered the investment???..mmm…Maybe the money remains in the marketing chain, but, IMMO, the cost of a sound decoder, update, is no more than $10.- So, with additionals costs, $50 to the public will be fine.
There is more to the cost of a decoder than just the material costs. In the case of Loksound, they are always updating their sound files with new features. This is different than say, QSI or Soundtraxx.
David B
No, I don’t think we are being taken for a ride. Very few of the hobby manufacturer owners I read and know a little about - and this includes Soundtraxx and Rapido - are living the lifestyles of the rich and famous. The owner of my LHS certainly doesn’t make a fortune, even selling at full list. And I don’t see the Walters descendants flying corporate jets to the Riviera. IMHO, both Soundtraxx (also makes Blackstone) and Rapido owners are focused on making the very best products they can for the hobby, and are not as worried about how rich they can get at it. And call me naive, but I believe the LHS owner and Walters are more interested in finding ways to economically and efficiently get the products I desire into my hands, despite having to deal with over a thousand mom-and-pop basement manufacturers, than they are in becoming millionaires and billionaires. But my opinion matters not - you think we are being taken for a ride.
So do something about it instead of whining in the forums.
Boycott those products that you think are over-priced. I did that with brass locomotives in the '70s. And where did it get me? I finally broke down and bought a Ken Kidder (low end brass) locomotive nearly 2 years ago used for 4 times what the new would have cost me back when.
Or go into the the model railroad business yourself, and either make obscene profits or undercut your competition by selling at more realistic (in your eyes) prices.
Or support and encourage those who make cheaper items by buying their products.
Or encourage our government to go into the business of price and profit regulation, especially for luxury items like hobby supplies. Obviously, the model railroad market is not working efficiently, and needs a stimulus and/or government oversight.
m
Do you know how much a Zero 1 decoder cost 25 years ago? Compared to that, $100 is a bargain for sound today. Plain motor decoders today cost about the same in dollars as a Zero 1 decoder did in it’s time, making them a fantastic bargain.
How much sound quality does the average modeler need? Can I blindly identify the difference in sounds between a NYC J3a Hudson and a Pennsy K4 Pacific? Having heard neither prototype run, how could I? Thus, a lower cost sound decoder with several generic steam sounds I can use to differ the sounds of my various steam loco models makes me quite happy. The same is true for first generation diesels. The only diesels I get to hear are very large modern prototypes. Again, a lower cost sound decoder with several generic diesel sounds I can use to differ the sounds of my various first generation diesel loco models keeps me happy.
Another truth to keep in mind is that even premium sound decoders cannot accurately reproduce the sound of the prototype. It is physically impossible for a 1 inch diameter speaker to reproduce the sounds of a 200 ton locomotive. Anyone who has been exposed to the sound of an actual gunshot knows that the little “pop” you hear on a recording does not do justice to the real sound. Yes, sampling the sounds of a K36 will give you decoder sounds closer to the real thing but how would the average modeler who has never heard a real K36 know? It would seem that modelers desiring such specific prototype sounds represent an even smaller chunk of the DCC market than they realize. There definitely remains a market group seeking much lower cost generic sound decoders.
geeze-o-pete Fred, no need to apologize, it was a question not a statement. And I must tell you all the decoders i have so far are much more of the mid market range. Now the getting the GOVERNMENT into this is a thought. We could probably only triple the price, delete all the features and the horn/whistle would respond with “YOUR SCREWED!” (in doppler effect of course). They would be self detonating with a sensor so it would only happen in tunnels, in which case Cheney and his shotgun would be sent out to help…But I digress.
At 40 bucks a month budget you are about where Im at. When DCC came out I vowed to never do it. Then I heard a sound equipped loco. I was doomed, and IMSC they didnt put sound in analog locos at first, could be wrong.
Doug
Speaking of decoder cost, I would like to purchase some non-sound decoders for some of my steam engines.
I did a little research on a Lenz LE1014 decoder.Has anyone had any experience with them, and where can I purchase them?
Thanks,
TheK4Kid
Haven’t used one, but looking at features for comparison, it’s pretty simialr to the NCE D13SRJ which you can get for as little as $12 each in a 10 pack. The TCS T-1 offers even more features than the LE1014 and averages at least $1 less (street) compared to the street price of the LE1014.
–Randy
Hi Randy,
Thanks for the information.
Who sells these decoders or are they available direct through NCE.?
I am using an NCE Pro Cab system now anyway.
Ed
Best price I’ve seen on D13SRJ’s is from Empire Northern Models. It’s a real shjop - besides the web site he has a storefont in upstate New York, not far from where NCE is located. I’ve purchased severl things from him. If you want BEMF decoders, the lowest cost ones I’ve seen are TCS T-1’s, Tim at Empire Northern has a good price on those as well but when I looked the other day, Ulrich Models was even better. I’ve used both, and while I really like the BEMF in the TCS, the NCE ones worked just fine for me. It is absolutely the lowest cost decoder around - other than some cheap Bachmann one which is really an old Lenz that doesn’t even have a high frequency ‘silent’ drive. And it’s the same price. D13SRJ would be my choice for a mass low-cost fleet conversion without sound.
–Randy
Randy,
Thanks again for your reply!
I am basically freelancing the PRR of the midwest of the late 40’s into the late 50’s.Most of my locos are steamers with a few early diesels.
A majority of them I purchased from IHC and I believe most of them were made by Mehano.
I noticed some of them said “Made in Slovenia”.
I have a total of 6 BLI engines already equipped with DCC and sound.
At this point I have not installed any decoders in any of my engines, but thought I can probably do it myself and save a few bucks…I was laid off in December, so I have been a bit careful with what I spend.
It has given me some time to work on my layout and finish a remodelling project on my home, and a few badly needed updates and repairs.
I am actively seeking employment but things are rather slow here.
I don’t plan on converting all of my engines right now, but would like to do a few of them.I have apprioximately 25 steamers.
One I particularly am fond of.
It is a small steam switcher exactly like one I had when I was a kid that was sold by Lionel.
It has a slope back tender, and I would love to convert it to DCC if possible.
I found it on Ebay for about 10 dollars, and it runs great, had no damage.
OI simply cleaned it up and lubed it, and put it in service.
I still have the original body shell from my old one.
I have 2 Proto 2000 2-8-8-2’s , and I would like to do at least one of them, and possibly a couple of my IHC steamers.
Hopefully they won’t require a lot of work.
After running a couple of my BLI steamers ( I have 2 each two T1 Duplexes,an M1a and an M1b, and a J1, and and a GG1 I purchased on Ebay, I am not sure I want sound in every engine.
I figure I can wait and in the meantime , perhaps prices will come down on them eventually.
The GG1 won’t run, but just sets on the track and all the sound functions work.
The seller didn’t want it back, and totally refunded my money, so basically it was free.Not a bad deal,
RETURNING TO THE POST: if PCM sold their Galloping Goose at $ 99.-, with ESU Loksound factory installed, that means that the decoder cost is very low !!! And If BLI sold Blueline at $119,99.- (DC and sound) that means that something rare happend with decoder costs. Now, a Paragon 2 Diesel is sell for 199.- and that is whole engine…don´t you suppose that $ 109.- is to much for a sound deco???