Desire vs Able to Pay: Some Questions

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

Actually a couple of questions but you can work them up if need be.

Awhile back a comment was made about how marketing surveys were designed more from a desire angle when it came to selection of locomotives to be made vs the actual ability to pay for such “object of desire”. This led to a situation were one found mfg overstock and product dumpings etc. Sound familiar here?

One aspect I’m looking at here is detail accuracy. In my case, my selections ended up being boosted by the discovery of several ATLAS RS’s that showed up at a couple of Goodwills. Over the last while I amassed what basically came from someone else’s collection. Having said this, my budget, if this forgoing did not occur, would have been along the line of Bachman steam/deisel and Atlas products and fixing them up to what I see would have been a reasonable level of detail. To me, then, affordability is a key component in the scenario.

There was, not too long ago, someone in our local area who went after an object of desire, in this case, a series of MTH UP9000’s and some Challengers. He hit the credit card big time. Now, he is largly broke, and has issues with his financing----but he has his objects of desire. What does he do? Kvetch about, you guessed it, the cost of the hobby.[:-^]

Now, what I’m looking for is what that affordability means in terms of what you as a potential buyer of a steam/deisel locomotive can buy and how that differentiates from what you would desire. Just how broad of a gap is that for you as a buyer?

And the next question is just what you do to achieve that goal. Buy a step lower down and then build it up to your specs or just sit and save it up, then buy the piece?

Kvetching is an option but-------

2

Barry,

my budget for model railroading is close to zilch, but my list of “Me Wants” is more than a mile long. [swg]

There are many objects of desire on it, which I will most likely never end up buying. It would be absolutely meaningless for me to “kvetch” about the cost of our hobby, as nearly everything is just too expensive for me at the moment. The gap you mentioned is as wide and deep as the Atlantic Ocean… [:D]

I guess most of us have to make ends meet and do our model railroading on shoestring budgets. It would be interesting to find out, what the actual average annual spending is. My guess is, that it is a lot less than what we and some marketing people in the industry think it is.

The fun in model railroading is not correlated to the amount of money you can spend. Our friends from the other side of the Big Pond in UK show us, what can be achieved with very little investment, but a lot of involvement.

The following pic from John Teal´s award winning layout “Mossley Terrace” shall just demonstrate, what I mean:

(Photo by John Teal)

Just look, how well he has captured that “morbid” British charm!Total cost were, as stated by him, some 60 British Pound Sterling, excluding the MU you see in the pic.

Now, it is not a basement filling empire, but I guess, building it gave him as much pleasure!

3

4

I think thats a bad idea. In the long run you’ll end up spending more time/money and yet still not have the object you desired to begin with. Save Save Save…ask any accountant.

I don’t think that question can really ever be answered. There are just too many variables.

(Example 1): I may make 6 figures a year, but my spending habits are atrocious in and outside of the hobby. I’ve got a real problem with money and always will have.I can’t even afford $20 in paint !

(Example 2): My salary is $30,000/year. But I am frugal, pay my bills and have a regular savings account. I can without hesitation buy that $600 steamer and yet still be financially sound.

So you have to assess your own personal finances and situation. I’m a saver and won’t hesitate to purchase what I want within my own pre-set boundaries. My desires stop at $250 locomotives. I don’t desire brass. Fortunately for me I model the diesel era, so $600 steamers aren’t on my radar. If they were, yes I would save and then buy them within my set budget. Others as you have eluded to don’t save, but use their credit cards and I bet their problems with money don’t stop at the hobby, but continue through all facets of their life.

5

For me time is the answer. I switched to S scale in 1993. Over the years since then I have had years where I could spend a couple of thousand on the hobby and years where I was just subscribing to the magazines. Most have been somewhere in between. Over the seventeen years I have built up quite a pile of stuff.

Maybe my desires aren’t as pressing as most, but there hasn’t been anything I just have to have. I buy what appeals to me when I have some money for the hobby. I have a loose overall plan to model the Ma&Pa in the early 50’s so most of my purchases fit in with that. But 2 foot gauge appeals to me so I have some stuff for that and some other odds and ends.

The truth is that even the modest engine roster the Ma&Pa had in 1953 (2 2-8-0’s, 2 4-6-0’s, 2 0-6-0’s, 2 doodlebugs, 1 SW1, 2 NW2’s, 1 SW9) is more than I need to operate my eventual layout filling most of my basement - around 1200 sq ft. They had a 77 mile line and I’ll have 3 mile line. 6 engines figures to be the most I can use at one time and I have the 4 diesels and the 2 2-8-0’s (plus one scrapped in 1952).

I also have another 5 engines that I have acquired over the years. Plus 5 engines for the narrow gauge. And I have around 150 freight cars and a dozen passenger cars. So realistically I am overstocked. for the layout.

I continue to buy more goodies that appeal to me when I can afford them. But I could stop now and still have enough to keep me going for many years.

Enjoy

Paul

6

Barry, the majority of manufacturers are no longer offering anything useful to me, they now having largely gone over to producing huge, “collectible”, high priced, steam power (my layout’s era largely precludes diesels from consideration). The types of modest branchline motive power that I could use just aren’t being done in recent years. As a result, I’ve returned pretty much to kitbashing suitable locomotives for my layout, mostly based on second hand smaller Bachmann Spectrum, IHC, plus re-motored Mantua mechanisms and shells, which I cross-kit.

I suppose I should count myself very fortunate in having done so, as I certainly couldn’t afford the $300-$500 per steam locomotive these days.

CNJ831

7

There are lots of pieces of rolling stock I desire to have but having them would only fuel the desire to own yet more pieces. A vicious circle to enter into! Also, once I had them my bank balance would be severly depleted and no amount of trains will put food on the table or in the mouths of my family. Saving up is one thing but even after doing so I have to question whether the £200 on that loco is worth it, or not? Does it need to have the all singing, all dancing sound system or will the cheaper sound version do (probably yes!) Do I really need yet another box car, even if it is only at an amazingly low price on eBay?!

I’ve got locos with the Tsunami decoder and others with the older DSD decoder - for the life of me I can’t hear the difference in sound quality - so no real difference other than price (and probably hype on the part of the manufacturer trying to shift their latest product). So why save, save, save for something I can do without. Desire is human nature and happy are those that can sit back, look at the expensive model in the magazine and think “…One day I’ll get it.” And then never get around to it.

Ian

8

Barry,

You make some good points. Model Railroading product exploded in the 90’s and continued up to the present. With a growing economy, spending was not a big issue. There were enough ‘big spenders’ with extra money to absorb product that was over produced. The manufacturers are getting a lot smarter in the past few years as the free spending has dried up.

As far as modelers and their spending - These are ‘big boys toys’ and purchasing will invade family budgets at times. On the flip side, the craft/scrapbooking side of the family will dive into the family budget as well. Us guys are not alone with this!

In my case, I have a very good job. My house is paid for, and I have a budgeting plan in place. When the Walthers Milwaukee Road stuff hit the market about 3 years ago, ‘Rib Side Fever’ bit hard. I spent way out of my normal ‘modeling’ budget’, but I had resources in savings to tap so I could make these ‘once in a lifetime’ purchases. I am basically back to my normal budget.

My case will change in the near future. I will be 62 in 22 months. And my employer is ‘off-shoring’ with a vengence - I suspect I will be part of a ‘Resource Action’ in the next 2 months. Retirement will come early, and there will be no Social Security for a couple of years. Basic home budgeting will be even more important. I have money saved for a week in Winnipeg and a week in Milwaukee(NMRA 75th Connvention) this summer. After that, I will be living ‘frugal’ again. But I will make it.

Jim

9

I’ve been lucky so far in the recent downturn in that I’ve retained my job & most my income (minus pay cuts). But with three smaller kids and their needs (not to mention college funds), I have a very limited amount of money available for model railroading. Probably $50/month usually, sometimes more.

So I’ve been taking a “just-in-time” approach to my spending. For example: I’m currently finishing up one side of my donut’s benchwork, so this month’s budget will go for wood, foam, and other hardware. Next month it will probably be paint, as I discovered my backdrop sky blue is too light when it’s under the real lighting conditions. And maybe some more track, since trackwork is not that far off. I am a long way from needing sound locomotives, so they don’t get any attention right now. I may start up a “kitty” for them, but I wouldn’t go out of my way to get one now, as it would just be a “shelf queen”.

Either way, I’d save up for the “right” purchase. Actually, with those three kids and work and family stuff, my available time to work on the layout is much more limited than funds. Unfortunately, there’s no way to save up time…[sigh]

10

I have to disagree to some of this argument. I have loads of the old Athearn F units and SD units that I had spent many hours of detailing, painting and decaling that gave me tremendous enjoyment that I feel was not wasted. Most of them are the best running locos you could ask for. Spending more time on a detail project is why some of us are in the hobby. They may not be brass or valuable to most, but they were affordable at the time and turned out to be very desirable to my needs.

To me its not how much you spend but how you enjoy your hobby. Letting the hobby destroy your financial responsibilities turns from a hobby to an addiction. Perhaps we should have an MR anonymous group to counsel the addicted. Some are spend less enjoy more others are spend more enjoy less. After the high of buying that expensive loco the excitement of desire is waning. Buying a cheaper alternative and working on it to achieve the desired result no matter how long it takes. And spreading out the final cost of the project is conducive to a hobby that spreads the enjoyment for a longer time.

Just my [2c]

Pete

11

My aunt gave me some very wise advice 30 or so years ago in regards to buying things in life. She told me:

“Buy the best YOU can afford.”

Although it’s pretty self-explanatory it means “Within your budget, always side on quality rather than quantity.” For the most part, I’ve always strived to do that.

For buying quality, one has to:

  • Know what you’re buying

  • Know what your alternatives are

  • Investigate what’s available

  • Know where and when to buy, and

  • Be patient

I’ve bought most of my locomotives online anywhere from 20% to 60% off MSRP. I knew what I wanted, knew what I could afford to pay, and didn’t budge from that. When the price came down into my “affordable” range, I snapped it up.

Would I like to be able to purchase a Division Point steamer? Sure. Is it in my foreseeable future? No. Am I going to “kvetch” because I don’t or can’t have one? Hardly.

Dreaming is fine but one also has to learn to be content with what one has and can afford at the time. And, just because I can’t afford something now doesn’t mean that I won’t be able to afford it sometime in the future. Personally, I’d rather have one very good locomotive than several decent locomotives anyhow.

Tom

12

For me, it comes down to how much can I afford??

I learned long ago not to over spend, especially on credit.

As for accuracy on any prospecting item, most of the time, it doesn’t matter to me. Yes the headlights on my CPR Athearn BB SD40-2s are on above the cab instead of on the nose, I’m ok with that, for now…

But I am finding myself looking at details more & more as I continue to read emails & posts about our hobby.

I recently purchased through eBay for $16 Can, a Spectrum GP30, custom painted CPR, nice glossy paint in the “2 flag livery” but the wrong number on the cab. Everything about it was wrong, but I’m ok with it.

I brought it home & immediately took the number off the side of the cab so I can make it “correct”

I’m good with the 2 flag livery as I’m going with a “what if” approach to modeling my railway.

Gordon

13

Barry,

Great questions - I suspect answers will vary but have one of several similar themes.

Those who have some sort of “collector” aspect to their modeling will see this differntly than those with stricter “modeling” goals. Seems you have heard from mostly modelers so far. As you well know by now that is my perspective as well.

I think modelers with well defined goals have, at least subconsiously, figured out what compromises are acceptable and what are not.

Most of my compromises are based on time, not money. I spend a fair amount on the hobby, roughly the same amount every year. I am self employed, my home is paid for, my children grown. Most other aspects of my lifestyle fairly conservative. I drive a Ford not a BMW, I don’t need designer clothing (neither does my wife) and our incomes are strong and diversified. So my spending is seldom effected by outside issues or household concerns. And I have a “sense” of what percentage of my resources should be spent on things like model trains - or other hobbies, and I only have a few other hobbies, most somewhat complete or dormant from a spending standpoint.

BUT, like wise, my spending is not easy influenced by “trends” in the hobby. Having been at this for 40 years I have clearly defined what I am doing, what I want to do, what levels of detail and performance are required, what features are wanted (and not wanted) and how big and/or complex the layout must be to reach those goals.

So, directly to some of your questions.

Since I am building a fairly large layout, time is a factor. I decided that even though I have the skills for hand layed track, I don’t have the time and the benifit is not worth the cost of that time.

The layout is large but very simple in many respects - this is based on specific design goals - example: long trains are more importa

14

When it comes to locomotives, there is no gap for me and it’s not because I am rolling in dough. Locos is just one area I get what I want. When it comes to budgeting for model railroading, they get the top priority. I’ll cut corners in other areas, such as rolling stock. but when it comes to locos, I don’t compromise. Right now, my fleet is almost complete. The only loco I am definitely going to add is the MTH Empire State Express Hudson. The budget is stretched a little thin right now so that will wait, but eventually, I will get it. There is really nothing in a lower price range that I would settle for.

If I had a desire for brass engines, this would be an issue for me because there is no way I would ever be able to build a suitable fleet with all brass or even a good percentage of it. My fleet has a number of sound equipped BLI and P2K in both steam and diesel. In some cases, locos I wanted were not offered by these lines and in those cases, I opted for non-sound Atlas and Athearn. If I have made any compromises at all, it is simply in waiting to get what I want at the right price. That means waiting for sale prices and keeping an eye out on e-bay.

15

I have no budget but I’m not greedy - I have pretty much no purchasing plans at the moment, just like a real shortline. My motive power (once it all comes back from the paint shop etc) is sufficient, and while I’m still building up my rolling stock roster slowly, it’s also not a big priority. Therefore my “want list” (stuff to supplement the layout) and my “need list” (small stuff needed before I can progress on part of the layout) are pretty much one and the same.

And meanwhile as I enjoy modeling on a shoestring budget, I can continue holding operating sessions and working on a well running - but inexpensive - railroad. I’m off to email my operating crew about the next session as a matter of fact!

16

Barry,The way I go about buying the things I want(not always need) I use several avenues which is as follows:

1.The cheapest on line discount.

I find by shopping around on line I can still find oop locomotives and cars at the leading on line shops at a fair price-some times at bargain basement prices.

2.HO and N Scale Yard Sales…

I seen some excellent deals on these sites…

3.E-Bay…

I had 7 excellent “steals” …Yes there are still some good deals.

4.Local use market.

This is where visiting clubs and local railfan meccas can pay off…

5.Train Shows.

Folks,There are deals at these shows…Take your time look on and under the front of the table…

Haggle! One more time Haggle!

Let’s say it together HAGGLE!

You haggle over your car and house price why not your models? After all most dealers are willing to haggle and more so as it gets nearer to closing time.

It may take some time but,90% of the time you will find that special locomotive or car at the price you can afford.

Questions WE should asks ourselves:

Do we really need that car or locomotive?

Do we need the high end cars and locomotives?

Do we need DCC?

Do we need Sound?

Do we need a Godzilla size layout?

Do we need 50 locomotives and 300 cars?

Of course those questions can only be answered by the individual modeler and the answers will vary from modeler to modeler.

17

I agree with you as far as the enjoyment of scratch building and detailing your own locomotives which by the way I have done. Mine was an SD70MAC in the Burlington Northern executive scheme before Kato came out with one. I bought the kato, and now my scratch built loco sits in a drawer.

However that was not the question so I don’t think your answer applies. His original question was, do you buy an inferior model, and throw some detailing on it, or do you purchase a RTR model already highly detailed. Again, my answer was you would probably spend more time/money upgrading the inferior model to equal a really nice RTR highly detailed model.

I will no longer scratch build engines because I think the level of detail on the Atlas Gold or Genesis series loco’s is fantastic. That doesn’t mean I may add a few things here and there, but I will never again purchase a separate shell, motor, chassis, and 12 packages of detail associate parts. Again, I was glad I had the experience, and you can do what ever you want, but for me, I’d rather spend my time on detailing the scenery and buildings. I will not buy a RTR building. For me thats where I draw the line. Most of my buildings are scratch built, kit bashed, or fine laser wood structures. But thats me…

18

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. You have a GREAT looking layout especially for your age. 15-16?

Here’s my layout at age 13. No comparison [:)]

19

it will all work out in time. when i left the railroad in the early 80’s and went into business for myself i went from dead broke to filthy rich and back to broke several times a year. i never missed any meals but when i had money i bought any model railroad stuff that appealed to me. one month we were vacationing in London England and the next month i was working sundays and nights just to make payroll.

now i only need to buy paint and glue and still have enough stuff to keep me busy for the rest of my life. a lot of what i cabbaged on to back then has become surplus as my whims change and i peddle it off from time to time. (why do i still have two dozen pacemaker NYC box car kits when i am modeling the IC?)

one can drop hundreds of dollars on a single project or spend days on something simple like building a structure for almost no cost at all. that is one of the great things about this hobby. you don’t need to spend a lot of money all the time to enjoy it.

as for using the credit card to fulfill your desires i have to admit that i pretty much spent most of the money i made but i never spent money i didn’t have yet.

some of the best models i have seen in contests and shows probably didn’t cost much to build but they were something to be proud of.

grizlump

20

[quote user=“BRAKIE”]

Barry,The way I go about buying the things I want(not always need) I use several avenues which is as follows:

1.The cheapest on line discount.

I find by shopping around on line I can still find oop locomotives and cars at the leading on line shops at a fair price-some times at bargain basement prices.

2.HO and N Scale Yard Sales…

I seen some excellent deals on these sites…

3.E-Bay…

I had 7 excellent “steals” …Yes there are still some good deals.

4.Local use market.

This is where visiting clubs and local railfan meccas can pay off…

5.Train Shows.

Folks,There are deals at these shows…Take your time look on and under the front of the table…

Haggle! One more time Haggle!

Let’s say it together HAGGLE!

You haggle over your car and house price why not your models? After all most dealers are willing to haggle and more so as it gets nearer to closing time.

It may take some time but,90% of the time you will find that special locomotive or car at the price you can afford.

Questions WE should asks ourselves:

Do we really need that car or locomotive?

Do we need the high end cars and locomotives?

Do we need DCC?

Do we need Sound?

Do we need a Godzilla size layout?

Do we need 50 locomotives and 300 cars?

Of course those questions can only be answered by the individual modeler and the answers will vary from modeler to modeler.

My Achilles heel is those colorful IPD short line boxcars and boxcars in general.Seems I can’t escape that curse even in N Scale.Sigh

After 55 years in the hobby I have wondered if we buy fo