First, sorry for the many photos in this history of my layout and expansion. Yet, I know that often the most useful info in a thread is in the photos. Perhaps I can help someone thinking like me.
FOUR OR FIVE YEARS AGO I BOUGHT A PRESIDENT’S CHOICE IHC 2-10-2 STEAMER FROM THE SUPER MARKET (CANADIAN CONTENT POPS UP IN THIS THREAD FROM TIME TO TIME). I BUILT A SMALL LAYOUT DESIGNED TO SLIDE UNDER MY DAUGHTER’S BED, WITH THE WIRING SEALED UP IN CHANNELS.
ELEVEN MONTHS AGO I MOVED INTO A HOUSE. I COULD EITHER PUT THE LAYOUT IN THE FAMILY ROOM AND USE UP THE ENTIRE SPACE, OR USE THE CRAWL SPACE FOR AN EXPANDED LAYOUT
FIRST JOB WAS TO DETERMINE IF DUST AND HUMIDITY WOULD BE A PROBLEM. FOR A MONTH I MONITORED BOTH. NEITHER WAS A PROBLEM. IN FACT, IT IS THE MOST DUST FREE SPACE IN THE HOUSE. BUT I SPENT ONE MONTH SWEEPING AND WASHING DOWN THE ENTIRE CRAWL SPACE TO GET RID OF DIRT/DUST LEFT BY CONTRACTORS
Way to go Cisco. Another bit of great fun has been added to the Sea To Sky playground.
Your crawl space looks a lot like mine. I’ve just spent what seems like a life time down there moving lots of plumbing around for the wife’s new and improved renovated bathroom. I still don’t know what was wrong with the old one.[:-^] While I was down there I kept pondering the idea of a layout down there as it is 3500 SQ.FT. It is also a very clean dust free environment. I can see me rolling around on my chair now.
I am guessing you don’t have a Beer fridge down there, that’s why you’re using pop to weigh down your track.
Keep us posted with pics. I like watching the progress people are making, it is always faster than my own.[C):-)]
Great to see you making progress. However, as a residential home contractor I must say I am concerned anytime a homeowner makes something “better then the contractor.” Horizontal waste lines are not to exceed a specified amount of pitch, this prevents prevents the water from flowing faster then toilet paper and other “packages” in the line. Eventually portions of toilet paper will start to build up and plug the line.
I have a friend that was dragged into court by a homeowner that contracted him to build the home. A year after closing the floor collapsed when he was filling the whirlpool tub. After investigation it was determined the homeowner finished the basement himself, never pulled a permit and apperantly had removed some lumber in the basement ceiling to make room for duct work. Who would have thought that something in the basement ceiling was holding up the floor above?
Nothing wrong with doing things yourself. Just take some time to find out if what you are doing is up to local building code or “better”
Computer hickupped a few times loading, but it was well worth the wait. Looks like you have done a very nice job and have a nice layout to show for it;
Are (were) the soda cans emptied at the golden spike or “finished” party?
One thing I didn’t see was how high the area was. You mentioned you bumped the lights, but my son ducks under things I have to reach up for.
Jon, that is interesting. I never would have thought of that. Who knew!
I should qualify that some of the things I corrected were not really by the homebuilder, but by the first owner who was an “iffy” DIYer. He had put in a drain pipe running back into the basement from a sink in a carriage house we have at the back. And the pipe he laid along the floor actually had no slope, being higher at the end entering the foundation and the end entering the sanitary stack. That’s the one I made better.
Ran lots of trains today. Finally I have a layout that takes my Pennsy heavy weight passenger coaches all around at max (but prototype) speed. That was the ultimate test for long cars today.
This month is the end of the cycle of first seasons for me in this home. Right now, and all winter the crawl space has been the same temperature and humidity as the main living space. Winters are wet but not severe here on the Wet Coast so I only have to turn on the heaters a little every once in a while. You can see all the insulation used on the perimeter of the foundation walls here. The dehumidifier never goes on in the winter at all. And it does not become too dry. Good news, because I was concerned about layout decking expansion and contraction after using MDF (mistake) on the first layout.
Summer is when the humiity rises in the crawl space and the dehumidifier kicks in every day to maintain the space in the same condition as the main living area.
So far I am well pleased with the climate control methods.
There is no doubt that you are a very dedicated model railroader and have the abilities and talents to go along with you determination. Your layout looks great in every respect.
My only question is the your definition of a craw space. In my part of the country a craw space is just that. You have to navigate it on your hands and knees if you’re lucky, has a dirt floor and of course no improvements.
The only other thing I’d suggest is a second method of exit in case of fire if it doesn’t already have one. With all that plastic and electrical it always better to be on the safe side.
My space was basically in very good condition for this. Sealed floor with thick poly laid before the cement was poured…so I just had to be sure the margins were sealed again with expanding foam.
There were two lights and one heater in there, but as I say, I had another light circuit installed by an electrician.
My big concerns were dust and humidity. Turns out this space was more ideal then the rest of the house in that regard. However, water pipes are visible and everywhere. But it was here or nowhere for the layout.
But as to height, it is definitely a crawl space. When I sit, my head is just under those engineered floor joists. The average height is just 50 inches. So I move about on all fours or scoot along on my chair or mechanics crawler. Maybe I’m used to it, but it seems great. My eye-level is very good and I don’t have to stand all the time to be at that eye level.
So anyone with similar spaces, and ideas, I would encourage you. That is why I bothered to put up this long post…encouragement. That’s what I get a lot from this forum.
An excellent story on the building of your layout. Congratulations.
As JonMN said re. the piping changes. Not only will to steep a slope allow the water to drain faster than it can carry the waste away but it can siphon the water out of the traps from your sinks, showers and tubs. At that point, there will be no water to block the sewer gasses from coming back into the house. This not only smells bad, but the fumes can possibly be explosive in the right concentrations.
Quick question to you and other builders who use the foam in layout construction. If most of the layout is flat, why was a layer of foam applied over plywood? I understand if the foam will be carved or cut away for below level scenery, but your design looks to be mostly flat plywood tabletop style.
BTW - this layout looks really large - should be fun to build!
[Edit] Greg, I forgot to mention in the post below that I used the extruded foam solely to overcome any expansion/contraction problems with laying track on wood. I was unsure of the climate control of my new area (not a problem as it turns out) and wanted an inert surface. I had made a mistake in using MDF on the first two layouts. It really contracted (though luckily it did not destroy any track at all). However, if I did this again, I would probably lay the track right on the plywood (on a cork road bed). You may also have heard that foamboard is noisy. It is. The new section is noticeably more noisy than my old track on the MDF.
Thanks for the latest comments, fellows.
Yeah, sorry about the length of that post. I would have made it a link to a website showing my layout, if I knew enought to create such a thing.
Gee, I really got some of you concerned when I said I moved waste lines and improved them. As I mentioned in an earlier post following the main one, I did not do anything drastic, and actually raised a pipe that was lying along the floor in a U-shape (higher at both ends) so that it had a slope from its entry across to the sanitary stack. So, the replumbing is ok, thanks.
As to collapsing floors, I suppose there are some dimwits around who do stuff like that. To be sure, the previous owner seemed to be a bit like that. However, in my crawl space I added studs for extra support where the original contractor had cut away the bottoms to fit around plate bolts, and left my temporary pony wall in where I had expanded the trap door by three times its size, even though a contractor who looked at it said I could take it out. Generally, the space is improved, rather than being made a problem.
I am very familiar with Mike Holmes. In Canada he was voted the most trustworthy man in the nation (ahead
That’s a great story on coming up with more space to model trains. I think I would feel claustrophobic after a while, but I tend towards that anyway. You certainly have put a lot of thought and effort into this endeavor. Good for you and thanks for sharing.
First, congratulations to Cisco Kid for a great layout and for taking the time to post so much detail. Thanks
Second, the fact that home builders are allowed to get away with building crawl spaces when it would have cost very little more (relative to the cost of the whole house, and assuming the water table will cooporate) to build a proper basement REALLY bugs me![:(!]
Third, I work in the home improvements industry and IMHO building codes should be respected. As I like to tell my customers - building codes are not high standards, they are minimum standards below which things start to fall down. Cisco Kid seems to understand the plumbing he dealt with but my advise is - if you aren’t sure, don’t do it on your own. I’m sure many of you could relate horror stories longer than the Kid’s post! Even I have to admit to fudging a few things in my own house.[;)]
