Which will give me the nicest looking locomotive (assuming I was very skilled - humor me, huh?)
Super-detailing a good 'ol $50 Athearn BB
Purchasing an Atlas or Kato Diesel
Purchasing a brass diesel
Notice I didn’t say nicest running (trying to keep the variables to a minimum).
I did a lot of reading of Model Railroader back in the late 80’s, early 90’s, when approach #1 seemed like the way to go - at least the way the magazine seemed to be pushing. It seems like every trackside photos picture said, “Joe shmoe superdetailed an Athearn… (which only meant Blue Box at the time).”
I have MR’s “Diesel Detailing Projects” book - made from articles that were in MR back when this approach was more common. It’s very cool, but being a mechanical engineer (it’s a curse, really), I could see flaws in the kit-bashed locomotives. Parts not filed symmetrically, etc.
I’m wondering if it’s maybe possible to go the Athearn route, and have all the details physically present, but still not look as nice as option #2 or #3 above.
Was Athearn superdetailing possibly just a pit stop in between scratchbuilding of the good 'ol days, and off-the shelf beauty of today?
More recently, I’ve read in MR that today’s plastic is more detailed than yesterday’s brass.
Are Plastic off the shelf, RTR loco’s just the best way to go in 2005?
For the record, I love the idea of becoming an Athearn superdetailer, but would be bummed if it cost more to superdetail it than to buy an Atlas or Kato RTR, and yet not look (or run) as nicely.
On a “cost is a non-issue” basis;
Depends on the specific diesel and whether you are talking factory painted or not in the case on brass, in my opinion.
I do not believe anything else can match top quality brass. Depending on the paint scheme and how could you are, you may be able to paint unpainted brass as good or better than some factory painted stuff.
For best value, I don’t think you can beat the new plastic stuff.
If it’s your bag, the upgraded Athearn may give the most enjoyment.
Athearns are very nosiey but run good. I love Atlas but have no katos (yet anyway) atlas engines a good slow speed operaters, and are not loud at all. At the LHS in my town you can get a good atlas in nscale for $50 to $70 easily. [:D]
Why not super-detailing an Atlas or Kato? So many of the Athearn BB required major rework of the hoods / vents / windshields to make them prototypical.
The reason there were so many of those in trackside was because that was about the only way to go at the time… The new units, thankfully, killed many of my detailing projects.
If you start totalling up the cost of the extra parts that were added to those Athearn blue box detail jobs written up in the past, you’ll see that it adds up to a significant amount. And it’s likely to surpass the cost of the current state-of-the-art plastic models.
As stated by Texas Zepher, superdetailing a readily available plastic engine was considered the only alternative to brass at the time.
I agree with texas zepher. Try a detailing job on the atlas or kato. that way you have a great runner with even better detail. Modern brass is finly detailed and runs well but the cost is a definat downer. your other option is the LL proto line all the detail and them some and still a decent runner better than blue box but not quite as good as kato or atlas. Bottom line I suppose is do what’s right for you. My [2c] is go to proto if you don’t want to super detail or go with atlas or kato if you want to make a great runner look like brass.
What type diesels are you wanting to run? Modern? (70’s-now) Early? (50’s & 60’s) Early, early? (30’s & 40’s)
As far as detailing AND running, the Proto 2000’s are a very nice locomotive. My favorite acquisition is a early Alco S1 switcher that I bought for 70% off list from Trainworld. The detailing is terrific and it runs silky smooth.
From your 2nd point, I’m assuming you are probably wanting to run more modern locomotives than earlier ones?
Yes, I’m thinking more modern diesels - late 90’s specifically.
I need to start getting familiar with what each manufacturer actually makes.
I’ll be modeling SP, and with this website: http://espee.railfan.net/espee.html
I should be off to knowing what diesels to get to be prototypical.
So you guys are saying Life Like P2K’s have even more detail than Atlas and Kato? Thanks, I did not know that!
Thanks Ed - that’s what I was getting suspicious of. Sort of like how in the late 70’s, early 80’s, you’d build a computer from a kit. These days, if you try to do the same, it would cost way more (not referring to just computer components you connect together, but rather soldering stuff together, wiring stuff up, etc…)
Wow - step away for 10 years, come back, and it’s a different ballgame already. Sheeesh!!!
I have a different aproach to some of my diesels. As far as road switchers
go, I will purchase either Kato or P2K, depending on the model-I model
the GN between 47 and 67 with an emphasis on the early 50s-so Kato
GP35s work well, as do any of the P2K first generation Geeps. From stock
I will detail them up to suit my prototype. Same with switchers-I like the
Kato NW2s (have 3) and also have a Walthers SW1, a P2K SW9 and
a BLI SW7-all detailed apropriately. With F units, I take a different approach.
I prefer to start with an undecorated, quality shell, (Highliners preferred) and
thenbuild and detail the shell to suit and then obtain a good drive to put
under it. I’ve done several GN Fs this way. I also will buy Stewart Fs and
superdetail them-they are such great starting points. I have a 4-unit F7
set, a 3-unit passenger F3 set and 1 1/2 4-unit FT sets by Stewart.
In short, then, there are many different avenues to take to create
‘beautiful diesel locomotives’. The one thing I don’t do with diesels
is buy brass. I feel that I can do as good a detail job for much less
money (and I enjoy it). Brass steam, on the other hand. . . .well, I like
the GN. To get GN steam, brass is unfortunately obligatory.
Oh, well, that’s my[2c]
Since I am in N scale, I don’t give an obese rodent’s rectum if the cast-on grab irons and handrails on my diesels actually measure out to 3 1/2" thick. I am NOT going to try to shave them off and replace them with .007 wire grab irons!!! I won’t be able to see the difference and the opinions of others count little towards the way I run my railroad! (Beware, nitpickers. I BITE!!) Just today, I saw a flyer at the LHS offering .007" grab irons for detailing. NO WAY, thank you very much! (BTW, I’m 57 and wear glasses for anything closer than about 3 feet!)
If you’re modeling the SP, forget about using the old Athearn BB models. A lot of the details are very thick and in some cases (GP60, SD45, SD9) the bodies are too wide when compared with the prototype. Since you are modeling 90’s SP, I would look at the Proto 2000 SD45 and GP60. With some very minor modification such as adding a new plow and replacing the awful included MU hoses, you can have a pretty nice model. If you’re interested in the GP6o, you can check out Details West who offers a detail kit for the GP60.
Thanks for the tips. Interesting about Athearn BB’s having large features. I remember hearing that in the past too.
I don’t know which loco’s I’ll be modeling exactly. I’m thinking I should only model loco’s that are on the 1996 roster, since my modeling date will likely be 1998 - figuring a lot of the 96 loco’s were still around in 98 after the UP merger.
I will probably also only model loco’s that there were a lot of, so that they’d make sense on my layout - making it more likely that they’d be present in that location (Pacific Coast).
A few years ago there were tons of old diesels sitting on yard tracks in Oxnard. I intended to get down there with a camera at some point. Drove by a year or so later, and they were all gone! Bummer!
They may have moved those locomotives to Taylor Yard and/or Yermo, or they could have been sold. I went to Yermo in 2002, there were large quantites of SD40T-2s and SD40Rs (along with UP SD40-2s) there, and a couple of SD45T-2s.
You have to include SD40T-2s and SD45T-2s in your roster. I know there were still a couple of GP9s on the roster in 1997. For West Coast forget four axle GEs unless the Sunset Route is part of your layout, although one would occasionally find its way up here. SD40T-2s, SD45T-2s, GP40-2s, GP60s, SD40M-2s, 9-44CWs, and AC4400CWs were all very common in the late 1990s. GP38-2s, SD40Rs, SD45Rs, and SD70Ms were also fairly common. For yard switchers, go with SW1500s. SP did have a few MP15s and almost 60 MP15ACs, however, I think they mainly stayed to the east.
If you are planning on modeling sugar beet trains from the time period, they had either GP60s or AC4400CWs (or was it 9-44CWs) on them. For cars, get 5-bay Rapid Discharge cars (I know MDC made models of them, I do not know if anyone else did) and put a mesh (the correct word escapes me currently) extension (similar to the mesh en
Probably super detailing an Athearn Genesis, P2K, Atlas or Kato would get you about the finest looking model. They are beautiful right out of the box but can be improved. There may be certain blue box or RTR Athearn that may very well make a good starting point. I recenty bought an RTR Athearn CF7 that appears to be really nice, about on par with P2K and runs almost as well too. The CF7 didn’t cost much and it would not take all that much time or money to super detail. The same can be said for a pair of P2K GP30’s and Athearn SD70m’s that I have. I’m mainly into steam so I may have a bias for brass but to me the beautifuly painted and expencive brass diesels in the showcase at the LHS still look better than the extreamly well done super detailed plastic models. Bruce
I guess it depends upon the diesel… The old standby F7 by Athearn simply doesn’t quite look like an F7(that GM “Bullfog” nose is a subtle piece of work- The fillets around the headlight/s or the windshields were almost impossible to replicate back in the early 1950s, when the tooling for those was designed. Likewise, due to the available motors of the day, the hoods of the GP7s and GP9s- and even the GP30s and 35s- were too wide-
I own about a dozen diesel units- all recent Athearn Genesis "F"s and Proto 2000s- and they are all much better than any first gen. Athearn. I look at those same ‘Trackside Photos’ features and I can pick out the “superdetailed Athearns” when they are a scale mile away. The squarish windshields and thick cross-sections on the side windows are a dead giveaway. Not to mention the absence of ‘wing’ vents. Those castings were amazing when they were first released (I remember my first Athearn F7- Christmas, 1959… those fans!!!), but much-better stuff exiists today. I can’t imagine that hanging $50.00 worth of brass castings will hide the shortcomings of those old engines. Plus- I assume, since you are talking about fairly drastic surgey, that you are also planning on painting - and you can buy Atlas and P2k diesels on a “we choose the road name” basis at some of the larger suppliers for bargain-
So good luck! There are a ton of beautiful models out there. I can see no reason to go back!
[quote]
QUOTE: Originally posted by CARRfan
Which will give me the nicest looking locomotive (assuming I was very skilled - humor me, huh?)
Super-detailing a good 'ol $50 Athearn BB
Purchasing an Atlas or Kato Diesel
Purchasing a brass diesel
Notice I didn’t say nicest running (trying to keep the variables to a minimum).
I did a lot of reading of Model Railroader back in the late 80’s, early 90’s, when approach #1 seemed like the way to go - at least
You guys rock. I am baffled at the amount of good info I’m getting on this subject!
To make my hobby dollars work the hardest for me, I’m going to need to be fairly specific in my modeling. You’re helping a bunch!!!
I did not realize the Athearn BB shortcomings were that obvious. But I’m sure as I become educated, those things will be obvious to me too, and drive me nuts if I put a lot of effort into them and realize their shortcomings later.
I am no expert on moden diesels. But what I have gleaned from the "experts"over the past year and a half that I’ve been here on the forum is that, for “modern” diesels, the Kato and Atlas models are your top runners.
I know about their steamers and early diesels, but does Proto 2000 even make very many modern locomtoives?
Gad Zooks, who took the lid off the “nit picker jar”. Somebody get the lid back on quick!
It is my humble belief that none of the manufacturers get it “right” (watch the nit pickers gathering). In addition every series of older diesels had some sort of “family” oddities, white socks on all the kids, pigtails on all the girls, grab irons across the cowl to clean the windshields, every unit with dynamic brakes on the west coast and almost none on the flatlands. The “devil is in the details” and your railroad will develope that Family appearance when you add or remove the ones cast on or omitted by the manufacturer shotgunning the side of the barn to knock down the fly buzzing by.
We have been spoiled by todays level of sophistication by the industry’s addressing those special fine details we now expect and hold those doudy old blue boxs up against and go tisk tisk. As the french say “Viva la difference”!!! I think we can still improve our models by adding the additional distinctive touches that make them ours.
All the Nit Pickers can go melt the snow writing their name in it. ( and advise them to be sure to "write " downwind!) And while I am ranting here, what is the difference in price between that doudy old blue box, and today’s Kato or Atlas offering when we compare apples to oranges.
Will … busy trying to make silk purses!
Personally, I cannot tell the differences enough to be a nit-picker yet. I do fear I could be a nit-picker in training.
I’m at the beginning of trying to determine an approach to my modeling. I always figured I’d be an Athearn guy. I’m currently trying to understand the best way to go these days. Of course, the “best” is extremely subjective. Your opinions are helping me understand what’s available, pro’s & con’s, etc.
Interesting info about the different “families” of loco’s. Thanks!
