OK like the little Bachmann E-Z DCC and at a way fair prices. Limtes I have found is like of F Keys to run all the sounds of my QSI sounds. All so cannot control the CV vaules to make the BLI’s all they can do.
I was told to look at the Zephyr, it has 2.5 amps better than the 1 amp I have now. Can use my MRC 9500 and MRC 2500 for extra power, that is good with the MRC 9500 only being 4 months old max. Can run 10 engines, same as the E-Z I have now. But what I am worried about is the 10 functions F0-F8, my QSI sounds can use F0 to F12 so would I be misssing sounds?
Empire has 5 amps, (but I have the other thottles) and F0-F12 so I have more sounds.
Then there is the super cheif?
If I go with the Zehyr can I get to the CV funtions?
Time to run some trains and thanks to the up coming answers Ken, asking again.
The Zephyr can connect to any Digitrax item via a Loconet. So… if you wanted the higher functions you will probably get a DT400 throttle to go with the Zephyr.
Wait… the cost of the DT400 AND a Zephyr already puts you into Empire Builder and close to that of the Chief.
The Zephyr has decent power and is a very good pack. But you are sounding to me as if you want to have it all on the CV values. Now. The Empire Builder is a nice system I like it. Good power on 5 amps. But you just cannot read CV values and that is a limitation.
Another limitation is the Zephyer’s Readout. I learned DCC on a DT400 and am heavily influenced with that experience. Trying to read on the Zephyer to me was rather difficult. I dont know why that is. So from that alone I knew my DCC will have a DT400 no matter what. But I would not want to spend the money for a seperate DT400 and a Zephyr.
I myself went straight to the Chief and ate the high initial cost, it helped that it was presented by the wife as a Gift for Christmas at a time we could afford the high cost. The Hobby Shop did well with the discounts and all (Taxes pretty much wiped that out anyhow) I was told I can upgrade to Radio at any time but chose to stay with the Tethered throttle.
5 amps is quite sufficient. I myself have 8 amps on the command booster with a Digitrax 20 amp supply behind that. I will NEVER ever use that kind of power to the max but feel quite protected on both the power and the control side.
The Zephyr is a good system but the lack of higher functions, adequate amps and a DT400 throttle pretty much limits it in my home. When I see my BLI ABBA units feeding, 2.5 amps aint going to be sufficient. They are hungry children who already runs very well on a friend’s Empire Builder’s 5 amp system (Not too long)
Another reason I did not go with the EB is because programming is too much guess with write-only. You enter the engine address and hope it acquires it. IF it did not, you have to sit down over a dusty
2.5 amps is not enough for the vast majority of us…at least, not for long. I went with the Super Empire Builder right off the bat, and have never needed more power (5 amps). I could certainly use a read-back capability for CV’s, but the thing can program on the main 'til the cows come home.
With your stable that seems to grow, and now that you are passing the sound barrier consistently, your Zephyr will quickly develop a cold. Best to bundle up now and get the beef that will sustain you for a few months, a year or two if you are lucky. Then, you will need boosters. The pricier and more powerful systems from Digitrax come with the vaunted DT400…once you get the hang of them, nothing else seems to matter.
Ken, I am a Zephyr guy myself and have been very happy with it. I have managed to get 10 locos running at once half of which were sound, but was able to get an SEB cheap on Ebay so have since added the 5Amp booster and the DT400 throttle. IMO the SEB is a non-starter due to the lack of CV read. It works great as a booster.
From your post I want to clarify one small point. You mention your 2 DC throttles. With the Zephyr you can connect these to the Jump Ports and use them as throttles to run DCC equipped locos. You DO NOT get the power from these to the tracks. They are simply being used as dumb control devices. So your Zephyr is still only outputting the 2.5A even with these connected. I use the jump ports on my system but chose to go with some dirt cheap MRC 2nd hand throttles from Ebay.
Since you throttles cost you a bit, why not see if K-10 will take them in trade towards a Chief?
But then, the ‘mere’ 2.5 amps of my Zephyr has been able to run 8 locos, 4 with sound, all at the same time.
I have added a DT400, thinking later to add an extra booster for more power. But after my 8 loco test, I think the Zephyr will work for quite a while with me.
The CV readback ability of the Zephyr and CHief, plus the dedicated program track to help avoid the ‘oops’ of programming every loco on the track to the same address, is worth it.
The ‘important’ functions like the horn and bell and brake squeal and coupler crash are all in the F0-F8 range. So it’s not as huge a deal to not have up to F12 as it might seem.
My original plan was to get the Zephyr then when I had the layout to where I could run a couple of trains, add an Empire Builder to get an extra 5 amps and a DT400. It’s cheaper to buy the Empire Builder than to buy a DB150 and a DT400. The Zephyr would still be my command station, 10 trains at once is plenty. The Zephyr in this configuration gives an extra 2.5 amps over the 5 amps of the DB150, plus the throttle is still usable. Stick it by a yard or engine terminal where the stationary nature isn’t a problem.
Connecting a DC power pack to the jump ports on the Zephyr does not add any extra power, just 2 more throttles. It does not matter if the DC pack puts out 1/4 amp or 14 amps, you still have 2.5 amps to drive trains total.
Keep in mind DCC booster power ratings are fairly honest - ie, if it says 2.5 amps, it’s 2.5 amps, if it says 5 amps, it’s 5 amps. While MRC DC power packs are quite good, I think they fudge a little on the power ratings, or they are a little like computer power supplies that may have a max rating but only part of that is accessible on any given output - like they may say a particualr model has a 2 amp output, but the max on the variable DC output is only 1.5 amps or something.
As far as functions are concerned. The only thing that you really gain with F9-F12 are the ability to shut down your locomotive (F9) and some pop off steam sounds (F10-F12). The most usable sounds are still F1-F8, which your E-Z Command can handle. (IMO, that’s NOT a good enough reason to upgrade.)
On the other hand, the CV accessiblity and adjustability does come in handy for tweaking your locomotives. For that you will need the more sophisticated DCC system for. Plus, all the other advantages that you gain by upgrading that you mentioned. (And some that you didn’t.)
Ken, with the resource and support that you have at K-10, going Digitrax would be a wise move for you. So I guess I won’t mention to you that the NCE Power Cab and Smart Booster give you F0-F29, instead of only F0-F12. (Stick with Digitrax, Ken. I’m just stirring up a little trouble. [swg])
On one of the other mailing lists, this notion of the new NMRA F20 plus idea has been discussed. The consensus seems to be that it is really not practical to remember all these F keys (heck, I can’t remember what F0-F12 does on all my roster of decoders!) and that they become even less useful if you have to press a shift or function key for a 2 key press to access them. I asked Digitrax about the higher functions and they indicated that this would be supported in 2007. Exactly how I do not know. I think the DCC throttle designers are faced with a real challenge and that is to produce a throttle with all the bells-and-whistles that is not too complicated to operate. A proliferation of buttons is not the answer. Fewer buttons with shift keys and function keys and double key presses is not the answer. Scrolling menus is not the answer. When I am running a train I don’t want to be staring at my throttle trying to remember which button to press. I tend to use lights, the whistle, the bell and the coupler crash and not much else when I am actually running a train. I think the only time I really access some of the other sounds is when I am showing off the layout to nephews and nieces.
I think it is great that the MRC’s, NCE’s and NMRA’s of this world are trying to add new features, i think it will be very interesting to see how this all develops.
I have the Zephyr and I use 2 DT400 throttles with it. I can run 10 loco’s with no problems with the Zephyr and I find programing with it and reading back CV’s with it very easy. I went out and bought the Super Chief but I have yet to install it on the layout, sometime over the winter I’ll do it.
Yes if you just add a throttle. If initial cost is any consideration, you can get a UT4 (about $65) and then access F0 - F12. This can’t do and operate as well as the DT400 but for a small investment it gives you a chance to get familiar with Digitrax and time to decide what you want for the future. Digitrax allows you to expand to whatever you want.
If you feel you must have what the DT400 offers, and that’s a lot, then just go with the Super Chief to start with and get 5 amps and an excellent thottle.
Obviously, I am going to have to re-think my notions of what it takes to run a modest layout of locos. I had assumed, based on considerable reading over the past couple of years, that two sound locos pulling modest loads = 1 amp, give or take a tenth. Now, as many of you are saying, you seem to be able to run 10 locos with only 2.5, and no issues at all. That would seem to indicate that an SEB or modern equivalent should be able to handle up to 20 locos, maybe even 22? Wow!
And, kewl! Maybe I should invest in a Zephyr and get readback.
How would I convert the DB 150 to cordless? I hear that Digitrax will convert the DT 400’s?
A standard DT400 can be converted to radio by Digitrax for $50. You don’t actually convert the DB150 to radio, just simply plug in a UR91 radio module into the Loconet at some point and you have your radio system. There are no modifications or changes that have to be made to the command station.
If you don’t need to run more then 10 locos at a time (actually 12, there are 12 slots int he Zephyr even though they say 10) , go ahead and buy the Zephyr, make it your command station, configure your DB150 as a booster. That way you’ll get a program track, CV readback, and an extra 2.5 amps for a second power district.
Check the stats in the MR reviews for the current draws of some of the sound locos. For example, in the latest issue, they have the Intermountain FP7’s with QSI sound. Slipping they draw .32 amp. Stalled it’s .86 amp, but unless you grab the wheels they aren’t going to stall. At .32 amps each, a Zephyr could run 7 or 8 of them.
Last month they had the BLI 2-10-2, .4 amps, and the P2K Berkshire with QSI sound, .34 amps. Locos are no longer using those hefty current draining motors that Athearn used to have. My Stewart DS4-4-1000 draws only .15 amps! (no sound in that one). I could run 15 of those, except the Zephyr can’t run 15 locos at once.
If the Zephyr (Z), Super Empire Builder (SEB) and the Super Chief (SC) are the only considerations for a small layout, then I would recommend the Z and the purchase of a DT400 throttle.
If you go to Tony’s Train eXchange (www.tonystrains.com) and look at the prices, you will find that the Z, DT400 and a UP5 (panel for throttle) costs $315. The SEB (with DT400 and UP5) also costs $315 with the power supply. The SC, btw, costs $390 w/ power supply.
The SC is pretty much the top of the line with 120 slots & 5 amps of power. The Z does everything the SC does, except it’s got 10 slots and 2.5 amps. The SEB has 22 slots and 5 amps of power, but doesn’t have CV read back (you can’t read the decoder). Both the Z and the SC have this feature.
If you have a small layout, you don’t need more than 10 slots or more than 2.5 amps. I run my 25’ x 50’ HO layout with a Z, and I’ve always had enough power. I would only by the SC over the Z if I had a very large layout with more than 5 trains running at once, etc.
Selector, T-Stage and other friends. I have learned one thing from this post, I need to buy a book about DCC because I have no idea what the Cabosse you folks are talking about![xx(] Boy I am lost, but I will learn like I have before.
Any books I should get?
On the bright side, the little E-Z is working well. Just got the new BLI Hudson 4-6-4 with QSI sound, the little E-Z will run it, the Class J 4-8-4 BLI QSI and a DC Bachmann GS-4 4-8-4 DC with no problems.
I am sort of sorry I started this posting. So many fine people took there time for detail answers yet sorry me have no idea what was being posted.
Well time to test what the Hudson can drag with out the traction wheels. Now if I can find the ratteling sound it makes at higher speeds with the sound off? I am guessing the front trucks.
Confused again, Cuda Ken.
PS, will take the BLI to K-10 and have him run them to see what if anything I am missing.
DCC is electronically talking to a group of locomotives.
All of the locomotives are eagerly waiting for instructions. Go? Stop? Speed up? Slow down? etc etc etc.Your throttle and control system will send out data in groups along the track and it will be talking to one specific engine or a team of engines in a consist.
There would be alot going on electronically with information in a form that everything can read. But thanks to decoders and other devices only the desired items will respond instantly to your commands.
I think they may add a twist in the future with ability to track coal, deseil, water consumption based on your driving.
DCC For Beginners - Click on the link 2. DCC For Beginners on Tony’s Train Exchange web site. Ken, you can either read this online or download it onto your computer as a .pdf file. Its FREE and a very good reference worth looking at.
DCC Made Easy (Kalmbach Publishing) - Lionel Strang does a GREAT job of taking complicated topics and putting them into easy to understand terms. If and when you are ready for “meat”, Lionel has a few sections to challenge you a little. The pictures and diagrams were very helpful for me.
I have been a Digitrax owner for more than five years. I started with a Super Chief (Radio) with DT-100 throttles. I expanded my set by adding an Empire Builder as it is a better value getting the DB-150 and another DT-100 throttle. I later upgraded to DT-300 and purchased one DT-400 for programming.
I have since down loaded Decoder Pro (free) and use it for programing decoders. (You need to purchase an MS-100 or LocoBuffer to connect your computer to the Digitrax system.) Decoder Pro also allows you to use your computer as a throttle. I use an old PC with Windows 98 to run the layout and it works great. You do not need a dedicated computer to use it for programing. My point being, if you have access to a PC; purchase a USB LocoBuffer II about $80.00; and down load Decoder Pro. The only throttles you will need are UT-4s as you can do all of your programing by computer.
Jamnest, thank you for the fine answer! But case in point as well.
What are the following?
DB-150
DT-300 and purchased one DT-400 for programming.
MS-100 or LocoBuffer
USB LocoBuffer II, well I think I know what that is, sort of.
UT-4s
Guess that is the problem, I do not know the slang. Took me a while to figuer out what a LHS and PK 2 are. Remeber I have not been doing this for a year yet.
On a side note, flags are half staff at the CK RR. Seems there was a bad wreck last night. BLI Hutson 4-6-4 rear ended the BLI Class J 4-8-4 and derailed 7 Old Dutch Hopper’s on too the A line. A Line was on Momentum and I could not shut down the GS-4 War Baby. She and her crew took the leap of death 232 scale feet to the floor. She need new drive wheels and drivers. Crew, well they are in the Big Yard In The Sky Now.
I think one key to his comments is that he has been with Digitrax 5 years and so he added newer items as they became available and needed them. I waited long enough and just bought the Super Chief Radio starter system. Yes, I paid more up front but I looked at it as an investment and I wanted the flexebility to know that I could grow the system in almost any direction I wanted without any worries. I suspect that in the long run, it will save me money but more importantly time and headaches. With the starter systems you get everything you need, DT400 throttle, booster and radio receiver (or not for non-Radio systems). The only items not included are the power source/transformer and any decoders.
I’ve since added two boosters for more power, a Locobuffer USB for a computer interface and a few stationary decoders for controlling turnouts.&
The predecessor UT throttle to the UT4 had stationary decoder control. There were many complaints that this throttle was too complicated and had too much capability. To Digitrax credit they decided to ask their customer base what they wanted in a basic UT throttle. Via the Digitrax users Yahoo group and other sources there was a lot of debate as to what should and should not be included. The UT4 was a direct result of that effort. Since control over stationary decoders is a feature that you personally want, then this is of little consequence to you, but I thought it was an interesting approach to determining the feature set for Digitrax to make such a public solicitation for input into the design.