What is your take on this? (Unfortunately, I’m not able to paste the photos of the hopper cars left on the trestle and trestle going up in flames).
Rules are Rules!
The Good news:
It was a normal day in , w
Yeah, rules is rules.
However, they are written in blood.
Sure, it was unfortunate that the hot wheel stopped over the bridge, but moving the train after the trestle was on fire, would not have made any difference.
The “good news, bad news” story is funny (I have seen the photos several times and it was discussed here some time ago), but it ignores the consequences of moving the train after the fire was already started. It would not have made much difference in the burning of the trestle, but might have set fire to a whole lot more.
There is one rule that would counter command any other. Ironically it is a rule of common sense but is rarely applied: When in doubt the safest course will be taken.
Which occurred in the stated instance. When a train gets notified of a mechanical issue, the train is stopped as quickly as proper train handling will permit which means the train will stop where it stops, then the crew begins a walking inspection of the train to identify and hopefully correct the problem. Walking 50-80-100 cars back from the engines does not occur in a single instant, it takes time since the crew is actually inspecting the running gear of the cars, not just taking a Sunday walk on a hard surface in athletic shoes. Once the hotbox was observed on the bridge, with the bridge on fire the safe course is to get away from the bridge and notify the chain of command of the instance…which is what was done!
Rules don’t replace commonsense. The crew should have used their discretion by stopping the train so that the car would not be over the trestle. People have brains for a reason.
Professionalism confers some degree of latitude in decision making capability. The crew should have used it. in this case. And the management should clearly communicate that it allows the PROFESSIONALS it employs to excercise their better judgement…otherwise all you’ve got is a McRailroad and you may as well pay minimum wage. Maybe the rails are different…but I depend on my employees to think and to use their personal initiative when encountering problems… I just can’t use the other type.
Henry, any railroader will tell you that rule is applied more than any other. I don’t know why you think it is rarely applied, but you are quite mistaken.
Actually there is a rule to cover this that would have allowed the train crew to move to a safe location:
6.29.2 Train Inspections by Crew Members
While their train is moving, crew members must inspect it frequently and look for indications of defects in the train, especially when rounding curves.
When inspecting their train, crew members must observe the train closely for any of the following:
- Overheated journals
- Sticking brakes
- Sliding wheels
- Wheels not properly positioned on the rail
- Dragging equipment
- Insecure contents
- Signs of smoke or fire
- Any other dangerous condition
Crew members who discover defects while the train is moving must stop the train promptly and correct any defects, if possible. If the defective car must be set out, they must not attempt to move the car to the setout point unless it is safe to do so.
When a car is set out because of an overheated journal, any fire must be completely extinguished and precautions taken to prevent further ignition.
The last line lets you move the train to a safe location to “prevent further ignition”. I suspect communication between the crew and dispatcher was unclear and by the time the crew straightened that out, the bridge was on fire.
Then there was the NS train in Alabama, I believe, this past spring that encountered a trestle on fire - the ‘test’ plastic bridge timbers/ ties had apparently been set on fire by sparks or embers from welding on the steelwork earlier that day . . . The train crew stopped - again on the bridge - but as I recall the engineer died (may he Rest In Peace) and the conductor was seriously injured from the resulting burns. (Condolences to both families.)
There’s an old legal saying - ‘‘Hard cases make bad law’’ - or rules, in this context. Perhaps it is better to recognize that’s what these 2 incidents are - essentially freak occurrences - and not draw too many inferences or extrapolations from them to be applied to other situations in the future.
In the other 99 % of incidents, stopping the train will be the best move to minimize the injuries and contain the damage - they’re not like airplanes, for which ‘‘Speed is Life’’.
- Paul North.
First - I’ve seen several versions of this email witht he trestle fire. So who knows what the truth is.
But if the trestle is already on fire - I would say it really isn’t safe to move the car. Besides, that bridge went up like a torch. I don’t know if moving the train would have helped at all. If you somehow got the entire train off the bridge before it collapsed, or the fire burned through the airhoses, then you may have saved some hoppers. Now if we are talking something hazardous or flammable, then well, you’d have to make a judgement call. Have to rely on that safest course at the time rule…
And you are sure the crew knew they had a blazing hot box and its exact location in the normal 130 car coal trains that the UP operates so that they knew where they stopped it was on a flammable trestle.
Common sense come into play when you can SEE the consequence of your actions. Pictures and accounts I have seen of this incident indicate that the car involved was well back in the length of the train. With today’s roller bearing equipped cars, blazing hot boxes are a extreme rarity and crews notified of a hotbox, by whatever means would not automatically expect one to be blazing. Trains are notified of suspected mechanical malfunctions, both by defect detectors and by other wayside employees many times…trains are stopped and the reports are investigated by the crew…many times no defects are found…many times something it found…until the on the ground inspection occurs you don’t really know what if anything will be found.
The common sense that is missing from this discussion is from those that have never been involved in the movement of trains across the face of the earth and have no understanding of the procedures used to move such trains safely.
I am sure…after all the original post stated that and stated the crew at asked managmeent for guidance on the matter. Admittedly I’m no railroad insider or expert…but I do know how to read.
Wow…
How the story changes.
Some where I have photos of the coal train fire on the trestle.
Mudchicken sent them on to me.
Here is a link to other photos of the same incident.
http://www.popularwealth.com/index.php/coal-train-trustle-fire
First, it was a 120 car coal train.
The crew didn’t know the train has stopped on a trestle.
As per the rules, they stopped the train, and again, as per the rules, they did not move it while the conductor walked the train.
The area was covered in high alfalfa hay.
Once he discovered the car on fire as well as the trestle on fire from the seized and melted bearing and wheel, the conductor radioed the head end, where the engineer called the dispatcher, then the local fire department.
Local FD arrived on scene, where they instructed the conductor to not move the train…(remember, they are in the middle of thousands of acres of nice dry alfalfa) because the trestle was over a dry creek bed, and they felt it was better to allow it to burn in place rather than risk catching all the fields around the location on fire, and the only water available was that which was in the tank truck they had…
This assessment/decision was agreed with by the TM …
Tthe conductor was instructed by the trainmaster to cut the train at the first car he felt it was safe to approach, which he did, and pull forward, leaving the remaining portion in place as per the FD request.
End result was a trestle and 6 to 10 cars burned, as opposed to possible setting thousands of acres of hay field on fire.
Lets see…allow some loaded coal cars and a trestle to burn or move the car(s) and risk setting thousands of acres of hay fields on fire in a area where there is zero water supply…
Glad those dumb railroaders didn’t have any common sense.
After all, if it had been anyone with a whit of common sense, the best thing to do would have been to save the trestle and move the burnin
You gotta love the last line in the story that Ed links to:
“The railroad trestle was rebuilt with concrete and steel over the next few days.”
That, I would say, is a typical (yet still amazing) ending with today’s railroads when such an even occurs. Love that phrase, “the next few days.”
My own comments are based on the original post…everything changes when you add facts like the conductor walked the length of the train. Nobody said a thing about dumb railroaders not having commonsense (although I’m not arguing the point based on some of the comments here)…let me oversimplify for you… I stated railroaders are professionals and thus should be able to excercise discretion and judgement AND railroad management should encourage their professional employees to exercise judgement. Who said anything about dumb railroaders?
So you and the original poster are both halfcocked and jump to conclusions on procedures you have no knowledge of.
[quote user=“BaltACD”]
So you and the original poster are both halfcocked and jump to conclusions on procedures you have no knowledge of.
Ulrich:
My own comments are based on the original post…everything changes when you add facts like the conductor walked the length of the train. Nobody said a thing about dumb railroaders not having commonsense (although I’m not arguing the point based on some of the comments here)…let me oversimplify for you… I stated railroaders are professionals and thus should be able to excercise discretion and judgement AND railroad management should encourage their professional employees to exercise judgement. Who said anything about dumb railroaders?
[/quote
I call it the way I see it…as the facts were originally presented. When you add information everything changes. In answer to the orignal question posed…my answer is YES…commonsense should prevail… Is that ok with you?
http://www.popularwealth.com/index.php/coal-train-trustle-fire
(Copied to activate Ed’s Linked piece.)
My comment was rhetorical…I am sure you, as an extroadenary railroader use nothing but common sense. In no way was I making a judgement about your performance.
D E L E T E