This is an attempt to pull a divergent topic out of the Bob G. thread.
It does beg the question of what is original and what is not.
I don’t think anything is completely original. But on the other hand, I think it pretty difficult to copy someone else’s work–style maybe, but each of us has our own space to work with.
We all stand on the sholders of those who’ve gone before. The difference is in the height we reach.
EDIT: Man, now that I read this back it sounds like a Hallmark card or something! [:p]
I am still trying to figure out what and How to do the scenery and detail bits. Part of me would be happy with a fully ballasted working yard modeled after the CSX Yard in Syracuse NY.
I have seen folks like yourself Chip come so far in such a long time and I am jealous of your efforts (in a good way!).
I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Soon my basement will be returned to me after raising 3 fine kids in this house after 20+ years. it’s time for my layout of my dreams to come to life. God help me! My plans in my head will take me the rest of my life!
I’ll be happy to expand, try a few detail bits on the layout and I’ll see what happens. Of course the Railroad Museum is putting in some new sidings this summer and I hope to be able to help out there with the 1to1 scale stuff, and the Museums RS1 needs the Cab restored, and I’ve thought about helping out there.
Chris
I think there is an expectation that we build on those who came before us, how better to honor them? Plus the whole learn from the mistakes of the past or…
Besides, if the great modelers didn’t want us to copy, emulate, or build upon their ideas, why would they put it out there for all to see (not meant to be taken that they are self-angrandizing).
Rick
I am a little mystified as to why several people accuse Bob of Copying??? Copying What??? Bob mentioned several prominate modelers who he looks up to. I think we all have someone we would like to emulate in our work but that doesn’t mean you copied their work. Just for arguments sake lets say I took pics of a great layout and went home and copied it down to the last detail until it looked as good as the original. The fact that you can model something to that level indicates to me a great skill level just to be able to get it down to the last detail. But I digress that is not the case here. Maybe some folks don’ neccessarily like the time era? So they label the whole layout as mediocre? I personally don’t see myself modeling anything before the 50’s. As a matter of fact I would prefer to model modern day but I would not be able to have my Steam and Geeps which I love. However, when I look at Bobs photos I don’t think to myself yuck, I don’t like the era this sucks. I look at the workmanship that went into the construction of the scene. Regardless of who may have influenced him BOB did the work and his work is incredible. Particularly his attention to detail that makes a scene seem as real as if you were standing there. And yes this is a democracy and everyone has the right to post/voice their opinion. I respect that, unfortunately some people do not have the ability and/or desire to verbalize their opinion in such a way as to get their point across without trashing the other person/s in the process. I have noticed an obvious absence of Bob since. I certainly hope this does not cause him to shy away from sharing his wonderful work. I for one appreciate his work and would like to see more and maybe get some ideas on his techniques.
Terry[8D]
There are only so many ways to make trees, or to ballast tracks. What’s more, we aren’t born with these skills, we acquire them. So, in that respect, we all build on the experiences of others. For me, at least, this forum provides my primary window into the vast body of knowledge which is the model railroading community.
On the other hand, most of us design our own track plans, so before we ever put saw to wood or wire-cutter to foam, we have cracked the shell of conformity and started down our own paths.
When I started building my subways, I found that I was kind of in a dark tunnel by myself. Gradually, I learned a few things, and did some technique development on my own, so I think that the subterranean part of my layout will be quite unique. Above ground, though, I think that I’m mostly just applying skills learned from others, and doing my best to create my 1:87 world.
Every model railroad, though, is a new creation, and I think it satisfies that urge in each of us to build something that is unlike anything else on the planet.
If not for those who have gone before me this would be a truly painful ordeal.
I like learning from others mistakes… and triumphs.
What I find hard to do is incorporate someone elses stuff such as buildings and bridges that I may have picked up at a show. In fact I’ve stopped doing that because I now have stuff I’ll never incorporate.
Fergie
Even though we all may have access to and/or use the same medium, we each express ourselves differently on our “canvas” - i.e. our layout. The differences are primarily based upon and have to do with our personality-type, preferences, and goals.
Rembrandt may have used oil-based paints to paint the Mona Lisa, but I can pretty much guarantee that I will NEVER be able to achieve what he did with a brush. Even so, that doesn’t nor should it keep me from striving to do the best I can, to learn from those who have gone on before, and even improve upon what they’ve done.
Tom
We all take essentially the same materials and elements, and then using techniques developed and used by others over many decades make our creations.
We are all climbing on the backs of others to a certain degree.
The creativity that we apply, and our own skill and personality is what separates one layout from another.
Take the “New River Mine” thread for example. Here you can see several examples of the same kit. Each has its own look and personality. Each modeller could have simply assembled the model from the kit and they would have all looked the same. But in all cases we used techniques pioneered by others.
If you really look at it we HAVE to stand on the shoulder of those before us. For without those that came before us, we wouldn’t have a hobby. All the pre-fab materials and buildings are only possible to us with the help of those who designed them before we were in the hobby. We honor those when we copy their designs.
A bit of historical note: This idea as far as I can see was first written by Aristotle in book delta of the metaphysics. Where he states we should be grateful to those who came before us even though they may be wrong, because they can still help us come to truth with their superflurous ways. It’s good advice that I try to live by and use in my philosophical endevaours and everything else I do. We can learn a lot from those we disgree with because it is impossible for someone to be entirely wrong.
Andrew
Normally I’d ignore these types of ‘spin-off’ topics, but after reading through the original Bob G topic (and this), I’m shaking my head marveling how easily people get suckered into silly debate.
First off: Bob has done incredible work. It’s better than I’ve seen from most here, and far better than I’ll ever achieve. He deserves kudos for it. I’ve enjoyed seeing the pictures and hope he posts more.
CurtMc then threw in a tactless comment and like moths you flew right into the fire. Soon the discussion turned away from Bob’s work and onto debate over Curt’s comment. Then this topic turns up. Wow, Curt must be laughing his head off over how easy you guys get suckered into a frenzy over a mere two sentences.
SpaceMouse – you even called it out as a ‘Chain Yanker’ in the original topic, so why give it more attention than it deserves by starting this ‘divergent’ topic???
Everyone – How many times do we need to be told to please stop feeding the trolls?!
Bruce, it is indeed refreshing to see that there is at least one person left on this forum with a brain! And please, Chip, no more inane post-related-posts!
CNJ831
[quote]
[Bruce, it is indeed refreshing to see that there is at least one person left on this forum with a brain! And please, Chip, no more inane post-related-posts!
/quote]
What an extraordinarily rude response.
Guys,
I started this post because I am interested in topics that have no clear answer. It is from the debate I learn from the intelligents minds on this site.
CNJ,
I invite you to ignore my posts.
I think we ALL are influenced one way or another by the modelers who have come before us. I know for a fact that my Yuba River Sub is influenced by John Allen’s Akinback Mountains on his classic Gorre & Daphetid–ceiling to floor scenery, bridges, etc. However I haven’t COPIED any of Allen’s work, simply used it as inspiration.
I’m even considering trying out some of Aggro’s techniques to weather rolling stock–though I haven’t started yet. I think that experts are there to open the door for us to try out our own styles.
As a musician, I am most certainly influenced by fellow musicians that I admire, so as a model railroader it’s impossible not to be influenced by the work of others that I admire in the hobby. We all learn and everyone wins.
Tom [^]
That’s also true about about music, TV, movies, automotive styling and just about anything else that has to do with art.
I’m constantly learning something new about MRR from everybody in this great hobby, whether they’ve been at it for 4 months or 4 decades!
Spacemouse, Your title betrays your foregone conclusion. It is called begging the question. The title suggests there are only two possibilities of progress, "doing your own work, and “climbing on the backs of others”. It also ignors the fact that an alternitive based on “hot phrases” automatically colors the responses.
I submit that an “Intelegent” analysis would recognize many other alternitives to artistic creation than the two you gave us. As it pertains to Our own artistic endeavors, I suppose we all did owr own work, unless we hired someone or let our grandson help. I have not climbed on anyone’s back since 1937, unless that is a metephor, in which case it needs definition before we can proceed without confusion.
Now back to a brass engine that does not run as smoothly as I would like.
There is always a first, usually built from the efforts of others. The rest merely mimick. I mimick, and enjoy my results immensely.
I would commend this approach to all but who would be first.
-Crandell
In other words, when I want someone’s opinion, I’ll give it to them.