If so, you have found a home. When I was a kid I had HO trains – there was no N gauge then. I’m contemplating buying a Lionel set for relatives in the South who have three kids who are “true believers” in Santa. Ma and Pa are bound to ask me how the various gauges relate to another and I have to admit that I have so little knowledge it’s probably worse than knowing nothing at all.
Okay, is it fair to assume that HO is half of O? Is that what it originally meant? Half of O?
And that N is half of HO; and Z half of N?
What does the .027 in Lionel mean? Is it a caliber rating, like a .22 rifle??
Does it have to have the third rail in the middle to be a Lionel, and to qualify forf a .027 rating? Is it in any way compatible with O?
I am told that Mr. Guilbert, he of the toy company, invented the Erector Set a long time ago. I vaguely remember a kid friend of mine had a Guilbert toy train. (Bear with me, this was during JFK’s administration.) Does that have anything to do with size “S”?
And how about these extra tall narrow-gauge-imitation trains that run on HO? What’s the deal there??
Don’t ask me to inquire at my local hobby store because the closest store is run by an unmitigated grouch and I patronize it as seldom as possible. The store I patronize more often (which is seldom, as you have by now gathered) has much nicer salespeople but they’re always too busy for chit-chat.
Years ago a hobby shop in Washington D.C. handed out business cards that had the major gauges and ratios on them, but alas I lost that card almost 20 years ago.
If there’s a good site for all this basic stuff, I’m all ears. Also happy to listen to what you have to say. I post a lot but it’s almost always on the TRAINS post. [:D][:D]
I love answering questions! But there is no such thing as an ignorant question, you’re only ignorant if you don’t try to learn.
O is 1:48, HO is 1:87, pretty close to half, N is 1:160, close again, but with TT in the middle, not sure of tha’ts proportions, and Z is to Nas TT is to HO. 1:220.
I’m mot sure about the other question, that is a good one.
Matthew
Allen: the 27 in O-27 is the diameter of a track circle. Lionel’s regular O was 31" across, but the smaller size was 27". The rails and ties were smaller in O-27 as well. Then they started producing wider curves in both sizes and nobody now knows what they’re talking about.
All Lionel O (I include the -27) for the last 60 years has had 3 rails. They’re all compatible (some exceptions). There are some larger locomotives that need wider curves, but you can run the smaller locomotives on the bigger track. It’s a pain to join sections of O, super-O, O-27 and fastrack, but it can be done. Track gauge for all is 1 1/4".
Gilbert’s S gauge is 7/8" gauge at 3/16" to the foot scale, a proportion of 1:64. Note all the S numbers there.
On30 (O scale running on 30" gauge) (O scale running on HO track) is popular, but a bit of a stretch. I don’t remember any 30" track in North America, unless a bit of mine or industrial track. 36" was common and 24" in Maine. It’s a bodge so they can run it on HO track, but a lot of the stuff is cute.
Note that the successful scales are roughly half of the one above. (my theory). Scales like S and TT (1:120) were too close to the larger scale, and were dropped when a smaller one came along.
O was originally 0 (zero), the smallest in a series of sizes going up to 4 or 5. The next smaller sizes were called 00 and H0. Someone decided that HO looked better and the letters were applied to the rest, since the 1 2 3 4 were gone.
Your friend very well could have had a Gilbert train set… American Flyer was owned by Gilbert, and they Were S scale… I think that American Flyer also dabbled a little in O scale and even HO scale (which does in fact mean, Half O)…
I think that guy use to have a hobby shop here… Didn’t last very long…
Actually, the original English O scale was 1:43.5. Why? Because 1.25" (the gauge of O or 0 gauge track) is 4’8.5" in 1:43.5 scale–standard gauge! So “half O” is 1:87 if we’re talking about English O.
American O scale (1:48) actually has slightly wide track: 1.25" is 5 feet wide in 1:48 scale.
A Lionel set is a pretty expensive gift these days–have you priced them? Lionel mostly aims at the collector market, not at kids.
A few weeks ago I saw a guy at an LHS spend $3700 on 3 Lionel passenger cars and a steam loco for his grand kids.He was working with the owner trying to not make it look like such a large one time charge on his credit card so his wife wouldn’t freak out.
There’s no such thing as an ignorant question - the fact that you’re asking the question makes it clear that you’re not ignorant. Those larger scale locos that run on 16.5mm gauge (HO/OO - OO is 1:76, HO is 1:87) track are On30 scale - think Bachmann are the main RTR maker though BLI have at least one loco and there is a thriving kit supply industry. Looks like good stuff - if I had space for another gauge I’d consider it, as it is one of the Bachmann On30 starter sets is awfully tempting!
Given the number of answers here, I think it is quite obvious that your questions weren’t “ignorant” and there are plenty of folks that are more than willing to share their knowledge with all.
Once again - that’s why this is such a great hobby.
Originally the guages were numbered and were in even 1/4’s of an inch. No. 1 gauge, No. 2 gauge, etc, and 1.25" was No. 0 gauge which became pronounced “oh”. British modelers realized that at a gauge of 1.25 inches the 1/4" scale models weren’t accurate so they figured out that 7mm scale made the gauge correct and began modeling O gauge, 7mm scale.
At some point somebody decided to make models half the size and so made 3.5 mm scale models or half O (HO).
On the US side of the pond, the O scale modelers went the other way, they kept the 1/4" scale and made the gauge correct for 1/4" scale.
S scale is 3/16" scale (S=sixteenth) and has remained that with gauge to 3/16" in scale.
In a further attempt at rationalizing scales, TT (TableTop) was introduced in the 1950’s that was 1/10" scale. It never caught on, and has a small following today.
In the 1960’s the Arnold Company of Germany developed an even smaller scale that used nine mm gauge, becoming N scale (N=nine).
Then in the 1980’s Marklin of Germany developed an even smaller scale, Z scale, the Z meaning it would be the smallest scale possible.
“Standard” gague is 4’8 1/2". That is the distance between the inside edges of the head of the rails. at various times, in various places other gauges have been used. Russia uses a 5 ft gauge, the Erie RR in the US used 6 ft gauge (both considered “broad gauges”), New Zealand RR’s use 3’6" gauge, many early US roads used 3 ft gauge, in Europe there were meter gauge lines (all considered “narrow” gauge).
Companies have found they could recycle mechanisms from one scale by using the same gauge and making it a different scale. For example if you take a model build for N gauge and build a superstructure to HO scale the 9mm gauge is close to 30" in HO scale. The locos resemble small narrow gauge engines.
Similarly if you use an HO gauge mechanism in S scale you end up with about 3’6" gauge. If you use HO gauge mechanism in O scale you end up with 3
O scale/guage gets pretty wacky. It was first created by Marklin in Germany, they had train guages of No. 4-3-2&1, largest to smallest. When they came out with one smaller than No.1 guage they called it No.0 (zero - or zed for our British friends). In English speaking countries, that came to be called “Oh” guage. These were for toy electric trains, so they didn’t real put to much concern into what the scale would work out to be.
The correct scale ratio is 1:43.5 (so Jetrock points out, HO 1:87 is ‘half-O’) but in the U.K. they used 1:45 scale because it was more convenient, I think it’s 7mm=1ft?? In the US we didn’t like that metric stuff either way, so we decided 1/4" = 1 foot (1:48 scale) was close enough, even though it does indeed mean the track guage is too wide. [C):-)]
N and Z were also first made in Germany, N is 1:160 which is a little more than half as big as HO, Z is 1:220 which is about 3/4ths as big as N.
Now on to narrow guage!! I’m not sure where it started - maybe the mountains of Switzerland with meter-guage tracK?? - but anyway, somewhere along the line in the 19th c. it was realized that you could build a railroad thru rough terrain requiring tight curves etc. easier if your equipment was smaller. So in places like Colorado’s Rocky Mtns, railroads were built to a guage of 3’ instead of “standard” 4’-8 1/2" guage. This allowed for tighter curves, smaller equipment, lighter rail - all of which also meant it was cheaper to build!!
Many areas had narrow guage in the U.S. - Pennsylvania had 3’ narrow guage trains like the East Broad Top, even midwestern states like Ohio, Indiana, Minnesota, Iowa and Wisconsin had 3’ guage lines. Maine had 2’ guage railroads!!
So…you’ll see something like “HOn3” in model train mags. That means HO scale (1:87 scale) trains modelled after real trains that ran on 3’ narrow guage lines. The “n” stands for “narrow guage”. Sometimes it’s written in inches…“On30” is O scale, 30" guage…which is som
HO originally meant Half of O scale. Its true. My favorite is that n scale was originally known as something like “treble 000” or something weird like that.
Yes, HO is half of O. And the caliber on a rifle is the fraction of an inch i.e. .22 is 22/100 of an inch. I can’t answer about the Lionel though, but you’ve come to the right place, and I’m sure you’ll get a good answer. Oh yeah, if someone hasn’t said it yet HO is 1/87 scale.
Hi all
Nothing weird about treble O if you happen to own some its worth quite a bit for the genuine animal.
English “O” is 7mm to the foot.
English “OO” is 4mm to the foot on 16.5 mm track I won’t try and remember all the 4mm ones that get closer to the correct gauge of 18.83mm.
TT is 3mm to the foot.
English “N” from memory 1/148.(probably the scale for OOO but dont quote me on it)
The variations on the sizes for the English scales came about because the motors of the day be they clockwork or otherwise would not fit inside a roughly scale sized English locomotive.
Because the real English locomotives where at that time smaller than there US or Euro counterparts and in some cases still are.
regards John
You have to love the wonderful wacky world of scales. There is no way anyone could/would have planned it this way. I love the fact that the most popular scale HO mixes two measurement systems at 3.5mm/ft. Add to that the offbeat protoype track gauge of 4 ft 8 1/2 in. And of course in addition to the main scales of O, S, HO, N, and Z, we have the mess that is G - several scales running on #1 track gauge. Then there are the minority scales OO (Which is popular in England, where it uses HO track), Q, TT, OOO (does anyone model this anymore?).
Enjoy
Paul
[#ditto] on all the above, but I’m going to put a kink in the track here. Even though 0-27 and 0 Lionel use the same track gauge, the trains in 0-27 are slightly smaller then their o scale counter parts. If you compare a Lionel O scale boxcar to an O-27 boxcar, the O-27 is about an 1/8 of an inch narrower and about a 1/4 inch shorter, but still compatible with each other. As a kid back in the 40’s I had mostly O-27 Lionel stuff and I do anmit that it’s been awile ago so I’m no expert on Lionel and is also confusing to me some times. Ken