Do you think BN could of surrivied with bad mangement with a merger with Santa Fe I think the only reason they brought Santa Fe was to get Rob Kerbs BN tried to get him with out a merger but he wouldn’t leave so tell me what your oppinoin is
DOGGY
Flip it around, Santa Fe went looking for someone to buy them.
Keep in mind Santa Fe had no where to grow their business, while BN was already a conglomerate, or merger road.
Santa Fe was at a point where the shareholders pretty much had no choice, either someone buys the company, or the company goes away.
When the choice is keep investing in a railroad that cant get any bigger, and therefore cant make you any more return on your investment, or take your money and invest in a railroad or other business that will, selling the railroad makes sense.
Placed in that position, I would have sold my Santa Fe stock, and reinvested in something else.
The only way to keep the company alive was to become part of another railroad, hence Krebbs went knocking on BN’s door, which was a natural choice.
UP didnt want Santa Fe, too many duplicate routes for the money.
KCS didnt have the cash needed, so BN was the choice of necessity.
Not real sure BN was ever mismanaged, even before the merger with Santa Fe, they were running neck and neck with Uncle Pete, and still give him a run for the money.
Ed
Ed:
In the era of the “leveraged buyout”, ATSF had all kinds of folks trying to buy Santa Fe Industries and then part it out. All of the poison pill strategies to rid themselves of Sam Zell & Co. left them in a vulnerable position. BN wasn’t bad management as much as it was a different mindset. ATSF brought in more income than BN because it was not complacent, but BN had the better source of steady income. During the merger nonsense, everybody was trying to buy ATSF to keep it out of the other guy’s hands, UPRR included. BN prevailed in the end. BN had endured changes in management style more than once - remember Frisco. As with the Frisco managers, the ATSF folks have been overwhelmed by the larger number of BN folks…
The railroad management now is hardly reflective of where it was in 1996. It has evolved into its own unique animal, the lines have blurred.
Mudchicken (one of Chico’s orphans)
True, and one of the reasons BNSF is still a major player, number 2 or number 1, depends on where your standing, is that the big brass was smart enough to keep the top go getters from Santa Fe, and let the “business as usual” guys from BN slide on out the door.
Have yet to meet a ex Santa Fe guy who didnt love his job, and his railroad, which says a lot about how the company was managed…
Ed
Well they didn’t have any good excutives who were in the RAILROAD BUSINESS their CEO was a former Airline offical
DOGGY
Doggy:
You are entitled to your opinion and agenda, off the mark as it is. It takes more than a single individual in upper management to make the thing go. There are plenty of good railroaders from the BN side that are still there. What Grinstien et. al surrounded himself with still made the outfit go. The culture was already in place when he took over. I’m not holding anyone up as a model of perfect management, the human equation guarantees that nobody is perfect. Some are better than others and Krebs was known to be not without “issues”. Business does not operate in a vacuum.
(Santa Fe has had other notable leadership that came from other railroads and other corporate cultures,W. B. Strong came from CB&Q as a for instance …how railroads “groom” future CEO’s coming up through the ranks is at issue here among other things…I would like to see a few CEO’s in the pipeline get there without exposure to the operating department and nothing else…would make a better leadership candidate)
[banghead][banghead][banghead]
Doggy,
The mark of a good manager isnt that he knows how to do it all himself, but rather he has the knowledge and skill to hire those best qualified to do the job, and the confidence in himself and his choices to empower them to do so.
The fact that a CEO came from a airline means nothing, unless that airline succeded.
Then it means he knew enough to hire and motivate the right people, and will most likely do so again, at the railroad.
Ed
Frisco’s pres – Menk – went up the ladder at pre-BN, this of course before the merger. Menk left Frisco headed for Burlington Lines, then became pres of Northern Pacific. In 1970 5 railroads became Burlington Northern. In 1980 Frisco was mergered into BN.
It is a shame that once proud Frisco and Frisco property is so underutilized as it was for years after the merger. The yard at Springfield was a beehive of activity before the merger and became a ghost town afterwards. It is somewhat better now but nothing like before the merger. We won’t even discuss Frisco Transportation, I think the lawsuit said it all.
Pre-merger, BNSF was generating a pretty good amount of cash. Post merger, the finances weren’t as rosy. I think that the combined pair makes a good network and a good carrier, but BNSF would have been fine w/o the Santa Fe.
Yes BN did have good railroad excutives I liked a all the old guys in the 70’s Menk, Budd Etc. But I didn’t like alot the guys in the 90’s. When did W.B. Strong come from the Q I didn’t know that. When was Lou Menk President of the Frisco?
DOGGY
Menk was pres of Frisco from around 1962 to around 66. There was another Frisco pres by the name of Grayson, I think Grayson was before Menk, but I am not sure. [:(]
Grayson was after Menk in the 80’s he ws the Cheif Pumba of BN and he sadly died just recently
DOGGY
Actually, the people I know at BNSF seem to think Jerrry Grinstein did a pretty good job. It’s like Ed and MC say, it has to do with the culture and not just 1 guy. BNSF, like any large organization, has cultural issues, but they also have some pretty bright minds (who sometimes get frustrated when they get overruled by the inertia types). Life goes on…
W. B. Strong lefy CB&Q on Sept. 19 1877 for ATSF…Without him, Santa Fe might have been just another midwest granger road…Instead, he helped guide ATSF’s western expansion into the 1900’s along with Santa Fe’s Big 6…
ditto the Texan’s (Ed & Drephpe) & Jim’s point
Mudchicken,
I agree with you if they were a granger they would of been not here in the streamline area
DOGGY
I am against the Idea of hiring non transpertation excutivesto run the Railroads
DOGGY
GO CUBS
i think that bn would of ran there lines for 10 years or so but with there bad mangement and all they would of probaly sold the line to UP, ATSF, or CP. but i think a BN + CP or CN MERGER could of happend. but i really cant say. whats done is done. and frankly it sucks. i miss the Santa Fe
also SF had two or three short line they were looking at to absorb but there wasnt much line to expaned to a bigger region of RR. i was surprised that kcs wanted sf lines and not vise a versa . sf and kcs would bee a good merger with kcs lines running as far as alabama but like UP some duplicate routes. and sf had a good midwestern route so there was no need of such a merger. had SP and SF merged 10 years ago that would be a different story. but that makes you wonder if ATSP would of merged with UP. but on another note i was surprised that a UP and BN merger didnt happen. as far as the sf wanting a buyer for there line i think they should of looked east instead of north
I agree edblysard I think they could have survived.
Me too I’m surprise ATSF didn’t want KCS that would of been good and I agree with bryan if BN AND ATSF didn’t merge it would of been part of CN or CP
DOGGY