Well, don’t ya love it when you get to the point where the dream of your track plan meets the reality of the space and benchwork? That’s always a fun wake-up.
Well, that’s where I am now. And compromises need to be made. Compromises that… errrrgh…end up compromising some basic fidelty to prototype principles. It’s a 10x 12 space, after all. So I have some questions to ask the cognoscenti of this site…
Engines working my yard are going to, um, foul the main. I don’t have the room for a ladder yard or much anything else yard-wise. So anyway, it’s really not a yard in that sense, because of severe size limitations, but I’m fancying it as an interchange track between my shortline and NS. There is also, up the tracks a few lengths, a switch that connects the main with the shortline branchline, which has a also small storage spur, a few car lengths longer than the interchange track. It’s not connected to the interchange siding, because of space and radius, but in whole it’s yard-like ste-up. So for a shortline, i’m hoping that it would be something service-able. But to service it, a switching engine would need to work the main. Granted, it’s a shortline…but is this something that is just a complete anathema…I know it’s a top no-no on the layout design SIG…but do shortlines ever do this - need to work the main as they work the yard? Would a class one like NS ever allow this near an interchange they participate with? Is it so highly irregular as to be a silly thing on a layout? Of course, I know if i made this permanent I’d have to carefully coordinate train movements to avoid nasty crashes.
So anyone out there (Brakie, you hearin’ my call?) who can inform me a bit about prototype types and variations shortline yards, and any compromises they make? Is there anything out there in the prototy
We dont have much room to model the real life railroads so compromise is in order.
Without some sort of trackplan it’s difficult to make the call.
Your writing is good enough to allow me to create a sort of a picture of what your situation is but I would like to see a posted plan of some sort so we can really get into it.
These are the different kinds of yards:
Division Point. Through trains for long range are built and die here. These trains usually cover a entire terriotory or in some cases sent on across the Nation.
Industry Support. These yards hold a hatful of cars at a industry so that they can be switched by a plant switcher as they need the cars for thier day’s production.
Shortline Ternimal. These yards hold railroad cars due to be delivered TO a shortline or similar or FROM a shortline or similar. It could be thought of as the shortline’s MINI division point.
Interchange. Usually one or two tracks accessible by each railroad involved in swapping cars. B&O might take a block of outbound cars from the WM and give the WM a bunch of cars headed out for example. Both railroads have work to do.
Everything else is usually a siding or two in a town that can hold cars being switched for that particular town. Perhaps a set of cars might be dropped off at a run-around for nearby switching by the way freight but it is not yards.
Another example of a yard is one that protects a downtown “Port” which recieves cars from a nearby BIG railroad and takes care of the switching locally.
Finally, radius decisions are yours at the end of the day. I personally cannot stand to see high cube 89’ long boxcars on 18" radius, the overhang on both ends and the middle is rather “Obscene” to me.
No one can make these final decisions for you.
There are PDF files availible that describe operation and books on similar topics as well from Kalmbach that can help you with your quest.
Shawnee, to what extent are you attempting to maintain fidelity to the prototype? If that is your chief concern with this layout, you know you can’t alter your set-up. Otherwise, you should do what you can “get away with” and still live with yourself. Will this tend to throw some cold water, if you make the necessary adjustments, on your use of the layout and on the way you feel it has turned out over the next many months? Or, will this alteration be a reasonable and sensible adjustment to allow you to carry on and finish things up to the point where you can run trains and add nice scenery and structures?
You are the one to decide these answers, not me, not Brakie, not NS.
2: Keep your radii as long as possible. Easements are good.
3: A switch up against a tunnel mouth isn’t really so much diferent from a switch up against a bridge where the road over the rail is pretty wide… say 6 lanes. It wouldn’t usually be a very long tunnel but there have probably been examples of that as well.
The thing that you want to bear in mind is that the crew of a loco don’t want to be sitting long or frequently inside a confined space with exhaust fumes building up around them either when they are switching or when they are planning to come through the tunnel and over the switch - in on direction or another… so (for the latter case) the switch wants to have an indicator or be suitably signalled so that and approachng train will know what will be happening when they hit the switch blades.
Shawnee,Yes there are yard that use the main line as a yard lead…These are usually small out laying yards found in smaller cities or towns…Of course we must use the method that is best fitted for our layout due to our space restrictions.
As far as a switch by a tunnel that would be used only as a main line switch into a passing siding.As for switching the crews would suffer and may be overcome by fumes so,as you can see it would not be a very wise move on the railroad’s part.Again we must do things differently due to our limited space…My thoughts would be to “daylight” this tunnel if possible.
Safety, I’ll try to gin up and scan my track plan for something presentable to review. I know it’s hard to get a visual sense of my predicament. I appreciate your thoughts in the meantime, and the info. And I agree with you, I can’t stand those 18" turns…gotsa avoid them.
Selector, well…I guess I’m trying to have some general fidelity to the prototype, something that at least isn’t utterly inane. I know that compromises need to be made, but it’s hard living with the thought that this is all so totally incorrect, even if it allows some interest for the traffic flow. Makes one wistful for blissful ignorance. [:-^] Remember when you didn’t get bugged by things like a switch at the exit of a tunnel?
Another choice I have is having another yard spur on the other side of the main, but servicing that fouls the main, just as bad.
Maybe I should just eliminate the interchange area, because it’s very short anyway. Or use it simply as a staging area for helper service headed up the mountain. To yard or not to yard?
So…anyway, does anyone know of any railroads that use tiny shortline yard whose use fouls the main?
And do any prototypes have switches at the exit of a tunnel?
Thanks Brakie. Well, I was hoping my shortline would be one with better financial backing that to put up with this sorry excuse for a yard. [(-D] Like I said, I’ll try to get a schematic up so y’all can better critique and advise.
Good news is, i’m in the stage where I’m laying out the plan! Took a long time of planning, and a some beautifully over-engineered benchwork, to get here. Now it’s about fitting. Funny how those nice 26 inch curves on paper turn into something else, huh?
If its a shortline, you won’t have a yard engine. You will have THE engine. The problem with fouling the main when switching is that it keeps other trains from passing by. If its a shortline there should be very few, if any, other trains to pass by so its not a problem. Now if you want to run 5 other jobs out of 1 track at the same time, then you have problems. As long as you minimize the number of trains involved its not a problem.
One thing modelers do a lot is they have every train work the same industries and the same interchanges etc. On most real railroads one industry is worked by one job. If its a really big industry it might get 2 switches a day, but its the same jobs on any given day. Non-run through interchanges happen once a day. So once a day, the NS will set over a cut and pickup outbound from the shortline. Dada, dada, dadats all folks. Maybe if its a big interchange they might have one train in each direction work the interchange.
Selector, I guess that thinking through your response, it appears that I naiively want the best of both worlds. Hence my dilemna. Living with the operational compromises, after all this time of thinking, reseraching, reading and planning the layout, probably will bug me continuously. But it’s true that I’m also aiming towards a nice scenery-and-structures layout too, and don’t want my yard to gobble up what little space I have left for that, like the town. I could probably junk the town down the line and have a nice yard, but that would leave me cold. But can’t have both, space-wise. And I guess it’s true that I could tinker with this micro-yard thing forever and never get the overall layout complete.
How I envy all those with the 30’ plus layout space!!! Aaaargh! [:D]
Well, i guess it’s the compromises stage I’m in after all.
Problem is, Dave H…I got Plenty O’ Engines for my shortline…GP 35s, SD40s, SD42s, even some SD45s…those idiots at my shortline invested in plenty of engines and didn’t have an adequate yard for them! How do I fire these guys. [:D]
Dave,A short line could run several trains out of a single yard all depending on the size and traffic.A short line yard crew could have a yard switcher that makes up the road locals and when finish the yard crew could switch any nearby industries or make a transfer run to the connecting road(s).
Well. You just gave a pearl of wisdom here. Instead of having every train availible work every spot/industry availible every day… how would you do then to sort a short line’s work before “Lifting” the resulting outbound cars to the interchange with the BIG railroad at the end of the day?
After a time there will be a set of inbound cars left by the BIG railroad to the shortline to work.
I remember my Maryland and Midland railroad, If memory serves they were run twice a day, both cement for the different facilties in the area. Other times it seems like they were doing something on a day and time that was not part of the regular morning and late evening whistling that I associated with the twice daily cement train. Always the same set of two engines.
Im fairly certain that the MMRWY got thier cement from the BIG railroad the Western Maryland somewhere.
I think the first section I have posted is the one that’s the killer for you. I don’t know why, probably my learning now that I am on layout #2 and moved upwards of 22" EZ-Track curves. But my feeling, my suspicion, is that you sense tight curves will be like getting into bed with wet sheets…it’ll work, but it won’t be something you’ll joke about very soon.
This leads me to the turnout at the mouth of a tunnel…why not? I’m sure there is a photo on the net somewhere of a turnout where it had to be, 'cuz the road master said so. If you can get to it with two minutes of lifting stuff aside to service it, such as to tune the throw and points over time, and can actuate it with ease, I don’t see the problem. If necessary, widen the portal 1/4" each side to allow longer cars to p
I’ve just been plowing through the rules pertaining to clearing for other trains in Peter Josserand’s Rights of Trains. Nowhere did I find a general provision that trains were not allowed to foul the main. What I did find is rules for clearing the way for superior trains (not later than the superior train’s scheduled departure time from the preceding station,) for trains of the same class (decision based on superiority of direction) or for extra trains (instructions included in train orders.)
I interpret this to mean that the main can be used unless somebody else with a higher priority has to use it.
Granted that my reference is based on TTTO operation as practiced in the 1950’s. I rather doubt that the basic principle has changed.
First off, if your shortline is using another road’s track the other road’s rules apply. Case in point, in the steam era UP, which had trackage rights on ATSF from Riverside Jct over Cajon to Basset, had to change numbers in the #bds from UP train #s to ATSF eng #s (that is, the # of the UP eng rather than the trains# as per UP practice)
Chuck’ post above shows some ways around the problem. Two others would be to issue a work order for the switcher giving it right over opposing trains between 2 points and then listing times to clear extra trains or, as the SP did when I was working for them 1964-65, between Oxnard and Montalvo, make the main line yard limits.
Tony Koester, in his book Realistic Model Railroad Building Blocks, talks about the Nickel Plate’s yard in Frankfurt, IN, that did NOT have a long drill track. He was amazed and asked a retired NKP brakeman about this, and was told that in the days before radio-equipped trains, engine crews avoided pushing really long strings of cars if they couldn’t see the brakeman’s hand signals.
Drill tracks are needed on club layouts where you have several operators running at the same time. On a home layout, where it’s only you and occassionally a guest, it shouldn’t matter at all.
Ken beat me to it: real railroads usually DON’T have a drill track, or no more than short ones, especially pre-1970 or so when radios finally became widespread. I’m modeling the “other” Nickel Plate Illinois mainline, and none of the five yards that the line touched (three of the NKP, two of the P&PU) had “drill tracks”.
Keep in mind that a yard is in YARD LIMITS. That means that multiple trains CAN be on the same stretch of mainline, so “blocking the main” isn’t an issue. In general, there was no such thing as a steam-era through freight, so the “main” sometimes didn’t exist past a yard. Engines would head from division point to division point and tie up for servicing (steamers were maintenance queens, which is why diesels won). The CARS could be heading through without switching, but the train would get a new engine and crew.
In addition, a typical “busy” mainline might see one train every three hours, which is MUCH less traffic than we see on a typical model railroad. Since the re