Are double decker layouts in an 8’X16’ space possible without room for a helix? (Using a "no-lix?) Can a simple grade run around the room get you up and down ok in this space? It would seem that the grade would take up at least most of one side of a layout so that an upper deck could only be achieved in part of the room. Am I imagining this correctly? Anyone done this and have pics or diagrams to show here?
I guess this is similar to coming up from lower benchwork for staging to the bench top “proper” but pics would help me to understand better what others have done…
All of the double deckers I’ve been operating on have had helixes. When I’ve asked their owners about
doing this without one, they all said, “Well, that would be interesting…” :-0
Present plans for my 10x15-foot bedroom call for a double-decked layout without a helix. The upper deck is along only two walls while the lower level is along all four walls. Twice around the lower level with moderate grades is sufficient to reach the upper deck which is about 23" above the lower. The steepest grade is from where the track comes from under the upper deck to the upper deck itself. The climb here must be sufficient to clear the thickness of the upper deck and the height of the trains.
I did the same thing in the early 1960s, but that time it was a 5x10-foot, donut-shaped layout and the upper deck covered slightly more than 2x10.
thanks Mark. Is there any feasible way to have a double decker on top of all of the layout? It doesn’t seem so…
Did you go back down to the lower lever by the same (return) path or did you come up in one place and back down in another, on the top deck?
Thanks for your response. Do you have any pics from your old layout? What percentage of grade will you end up with on your new one? I’d really like to consider doubling up my mainline run in this skinny long room.
Sorry, no photos. That was two college degrees, two wives, and two cross-country moves ago.
The schematic of both plans was a continuous mainline on the lower level with a branch terminating on the upper deck. Trains on the upper track returned on the same route.
A grade of 3% is enough on the current plan on the last grade segment (grades are considerably lower elsewhere) because there are only two wall lengths to achieve the last grade separation. The upper deck is essentially level. That last bit of grade will be a good excuse for helping locomotives or doubling the hill. Without looking back, I believe you have a bigger space, so for you the grades should be even less. Edit: guess not, your room is slightly smaller.
With an 8 x 16 room, I estimated that your simple once around the room layout mainline would be about 40 feet long. That means with one trip around the room, to climb just one foot, you’ll need a 2.5% grade.
You’ll probably want more than one foot between decks, so let’s say you have 15 inches between decks. Then you’ll have 480 inches to climb 15 or a 3.2% grade.
That doesn’t give you any flat place for switching though.
I think you have a few options. Maybe your modeling mountains where two tracks per scene doesn’t look out of place and the railroad can go around the room twice per level to make the climb. You can hide the climb behind a false backdrop and use the previously mentioned 2.5% grade plus more grade leading into and out of the around the wall climb, leaving each deck flat for switching.
Of course assuming you can go away from the room walls, you do have room for a helix in your space.
To get from one level to another, all you need is a tangent as long as the longest train you intend to transfer from one level to the other. Rig that piece of track as an elevator. Viola, transposition from one level to another, separate the levels as far as you want, no hideous grade between.
Actually, when the peninsula I’m working on is finished, I’ll have both an elevator and a long 40:1000 (4%) grade. The colliery is at the top of the climb. To get the loaded unit trains back behind the tipple and the empties down to staging, I’ll be using a John Armstrong style, “Dehydrated canal lock.” Other variants use shelf slide hardware to guide a purely vertical movement.
If I run out of things to do (in 25 years or so) I might add some upper level narrow gauge scenes, connected to the main level by elevators since there isn’t room for connecting grades.
The inherent problem in a no-lix, particularly in a small space is that you end up devoting your entire layout to making the transition and what you end up with is no room for anything else. It’s better–more cost efficient, better use of space, better functioning, more aesthetically pleasing and realistic–to build one level well.
I assume that you’re modelling in HO scale, so, in my opinion, Chuck’s suggestion of an elevator is the best choice to have a second level that’s of any use. The space “wasted” by the elevator would be less than that “wasted” by a helix.
With a no-lix, you could gain about a foot of elevation for every circumnavigation of the room, perhaps simulating the mountain division of a railroad, but there’d be no useful layout area at the top or bottom of the grade. I have a no-lix on my layout, but in a larger area - I felt that the scenic and operating possibilities were better than with a helix. Still, there’s room for a second level over only part of the layout due to the odd shape of the room.
I am starting to work on a two-level layout, but the upper section is only along two walls, with a no-lix to reach the upper level. My room is 9 by 24. I plan on using either a 1x2 or 1x3 mounted on the wall for most of the grade, like a narrow shelf. The top of the shelf will be sceniced and there will be a facia on the front to hide the feeder wires. The facia may be part of the scenery to the lower level. It will be in the form of a vertical rock wall or a stone wall, or both at different places, so it doesn’t take up too much room. The lower level will be around 18 to 24 inches wide, so I don’t think that the narrow shelf will take up that much room. (I may be wrong when I get into it though.) Some of my no-lix will be disguised as a long deck girder bridge. That will be made similar to the 1x2 shelf, but narrower and with girder plates glued to the one side facing the room, and the track on that. There may be one or two bridge supports near the bottom part, but there will be a long section with no visible support. It’s just going to look like it is floating in the air.
I also think that you could have an upper level all around the room. If you pulled the layout away from the wall about four inches along one wall, it should allow the no-lix shelf to come up onto the upper level between it and the wall. Of course that means that you will have to build that upper section in one length so it can be supported from the ends only with maybe one or two supports that won’t interfere with the track and train.
For some of the things that I do on or with a layout, I tend to build samples or examples in order to prove a new concept before I actually build and install the final version on my layout. That way, if something doesn’t work quite the way I think that it should, I can modify or make changes to the sample or example that may fix it or work better.
One thing to remember is that a model railroad layout is mostly an illusion. So the goal is to make things work the way you nee
Thanks. The specifics regarding inches of rise and the ending percentage of grade really help me.
I think the incorporation of the grade in mountain scenery would be my lst/instinctual solution.
I figured only part of the room (one wall, maybe) could be an upper level so it would likely be a loco servicing yard or classification yard or passenger terminal…
Eric, when you say it wouldn’t give me any flat place for switching, I assume you mean on the grade?
If so, yeah, I really didn’t expect any until I got up to a 2nd level.
I don’t think there is anywhere I could possibly put a helix in this room and still have any appreciable layout!
It’s likely to be an oval-ish for larger radii doughnut as is. Dogbone/folded dogbones just fill up the space with loops and almost no mainline straight sections (maybe 3’)…
Chuck, the elevator idea is an excellent one and one that hadn’t occured to me! I’ll have to play with that idea. It would certainly cut down on bench work expenses. This begs for a whole other request for pics on how folks have achieved this! I’m wondering how the “reality feel” of this would be too. I suppose it would take no more time and likely much less than waiting for one’s train to appear out of the helix. Hmmm…
I’m kind of excited about exploring this…could be a form of staging too, like a car ferry or cassette, no?
Chip, yes, this was my original thinking and still the lst choice. My inexperience and apparent “learning disability” in picturing things ahead of time made me wonder if a complete upper level was possible. It didn’t seem so. I just have the usual temptation of getting as much of a mainline run and/or more switching in my small space as possible.
Elmer, thanks for the suggestion about moving one section 4 inches away from a wall. I’ll see what that does to my radii. I’m stubbornly trying to hold onto the possibility of running articulated locos in this space so I may need to stay close to the wall. We
My room is 11 x 20, BUT I’m only using 16 x 11 for the layout…
Two decks, about 14" apart from the top of the rails of the bottom deck to the bottom of the board on the top deck.
Instead of a helix, I’m running a combination of straight trackage with a decent sized loop in order to reach the top deck using a 4% grade-- It figures out to about a 30’ run.
The bottom deck is flat. The top deck is flat. The only grade on the layout will be the connecting trackage between the decks.
I agree that a once around No-lix would result in steep grades but trhere is a way around it if you can handle some hidden running. Just go half the height on the visible portion then run the track behind the scenery for the rest of the climb to the second level on a second lap around the room. That would push your railroad 4" closer to the center of the room on all sides and make a long hidden run but it would ease that grade to where it is manageable.
After looking at the photos unless you want to engage in moving tracks on the lower level to provide space for the upgrade around the wall loop (plan on atleast a 60 foot run to keep grades somewhat reasonable), the elevator might be something to really seriously consider. Here’s an article of someone who DIY:
Take note of the very substantial lumber used. There’s also a commercial product available that while not exactly cheap, seems to take all the fussy work out of the process:
Sorry to repeat myself from earlier threads, but there’s no need to actually have the two decks physically connect. I wrote about a layout design of this type in Model Railroad Planning 2008 and discussed the concept in detail in Layout Design Journal #28, Spring 2003, published by the Layout Design SIG.
Basically, the multiple decks are linked by operations concepts and staging. A train drives into staging on one deck representing the connection to the other deck. On that other deck, at the same or different time, a similar train emerges from staging (representing the first deck) to continue its run. This works very well for branches, as I described in the MRP 2008 article.
Especially when the desire is for a large minimum radius, an adequate helix often does not fit in a small-to-midsize room. And the around-the-room helix in a smaller space often requires multiple crossings of the room entrance to gain the necessary height between decks. (Although the around-the-room-helix is not a bad idea in and of itself). Another benefit is that the multiple decks can be at any elevation to one another, since there is no need to physically connect them.
One of the interesting aspects of this kind of layout is that it can represent different eras on the different decks. This allows folks to “scratch the itch” of an interest in a different era without the sometimes challenging task of exchanging all the anachronistic elements on the layout.
That’s pretty much how I’m going to do it. 1/2 of it will be seen & 1/2 is hidden.
The lower deck will represent a short section of a class 1 main with staging on each end. The upper deck is a branchline/shortline, which makes the 4% grade more acceptable.
I’ve tested the full length of the transition from one end to the other and I’ve found that a 4% grade is palatable. My U30C can haul 14 cars without causing the wheels to spin.
Aye, Cap. I would still go with the helix at one end, with about the middle turn exposed on the side of the mountain. This accomplishes two things: it gives you some time/distance separation between feature elements (LDE’s) such as switching industries, and yard work, and the exposed part allows you to monitor progress on the helix which is much better than having all hidden track. I would also make some parts of the trackage along the walls on a bit of grade, too with the switching areas fairly level, but not directly across from each other so you could have more than one operator at times. jc5729 John Colley, Port Townsend, WA
I’m designing a train lift now, it’s in the concept stage. Basically it’s a drawer set on it’s end with the face frame up and uses a threaded rod to raise and lower the drawer driven by a bicycle chain and sprocket attached to the threaded rod and a 1/2 inch drill attached to another threaded rod and sprocket to power it. I’m planning to use drawer slides to help guide it. And a counter weight system of weights and pulleys to off set the weight of the drawer or lift assemble. I still need to work out the safety issues to stop the train from falling if the platform is not in place on that level when the train comes along or to stop the train for falling off the lift if it should tilt while lifting or lowering a train.
I’ll post my plans once I get a little further along. But here’s a quick gif of the concept.
Just to add to what johnny_reb has already mentioned: There is a great article in the 1997 Model Railroad Planning annual written by Don Smith that goes into great detail about the concepts, designs and realities and of using an elevator.
I used that article to build a semi-circle elevator on my 8X19 layout. I use a simple manual pulley and counter-weight system with a window latch at the top and bottom to lock it into place. I had enough room for the helix but with a 22" rise, it would have required almost 7 turns and close to 75’ feet of track in the helix.
The secret to a smooth operating elevator is to use ball-bearing drawer guides attached to your elevator and benchwork. You attach them vertically to guide the elevator up and down.
Thanks for all of the responses and detailed elevator plans guys! Really useful stuff to consider.
John, I just today came up with an idea of running two return loops through the infamous dividing wall
which would serve as a pseudo helix/grade climb and keep the loops from filling up all the available space
without any straight-ish main line runs.
The local NMRA division guy was able to come by and look things over and he’ll sketch things out for me. Additionally he was an architect which certainly won’t hurt any! Super nice guy!
I have a twice around oval published plan (I’ll adapt further) that has all of the druther elements I want on a layout (turntable/roundhouse/grades/switching puzzle-ish industry sidings.
and he’ll see if he can come up with a workable way to incorporate a lift bridge for room entry.
He liked the plan too and we’ll see if we can make that work. It’ll be one level so far, but…
We’ll play with a 2nd deck idea(s) too in the meanwhile.
Byron is it possible to get an emailed copy of the article(s) you wrote? Do you have them scanned?
How long does it take to get things from the design group?
Tom, the division planner is going to see if he can come up with a half loco servicing yard/ have passenger terminal idea (on opposite ends of the layout) with some sceniced mainline run too.
I need all of the help I can get!
Kalmbach owns the copyright on the MRP 2008 article, you can still buy the magazine directly from our hosts on-line. Might even still be in hobby shops.
The LDSIG usually ships back issues reasonably quickly. It’s an all-volunteer organization, so occasionally things take a few weeks. Someone in the NMRA region may be an LDSIG member and have a copy you could look at.
