Its certainly not illegal and on some roads it might be against the rules, but on the many roads it is permitted if done safely, even today. It was very common in days gone by.
Dave H.
Actually its pretty well impossible.
another version is to shove the cars past a switch up a grade. Tie handbrakes. put the engine in the spur. Release the handbrakes, let the cars roll by and stop them with handbrakes. This is called a "gravity switch’ and is possible with a model if you have a rod that can be raised between the rails to catch the cut of cars.
Dave H.
I hshould go find my source then, but I remember a diagram of it using boxes as a train. Possibly a yard designing book. the keyword here is safely.
Now, Hawthorne Yard in Indianapolis has no hump. So they set the switches, and ram the cars to get them to move. You can the thundering from a mile away like it was next to you.
What they do is accelerate a cut and then one switchman pulls the pin while the other lines the switches, the engine slows, the detached cars cars roll away, then the engine accelerates again, they cut off the next group of cars, the engine slows, etc. A good switch crew can have 2-3 cars rolling down the lead at any given time. After switching a few cars then the switcher pulls back on the lead, and then starts another set of “kicks”. They don’t “ram” the cars. What you are hearing is the slack running in and out of the switch cut as they speed up and slow down while switching.
Dave H.
Go read John Armstrong’s book about realistic operation, then come back and report what you’ve learned.[D)]
Lee
pilot, I can’t believe that I am the only one out here who doesn’t understand what in the heck you are talking about!!! What is a left hand stub siding? What is a right hand stub siding? What am I doing up at 12:05am?
This is kind of a convoluted ‘Dutch’ drop; whether it works or not if you get caught they give you a map to the unemployment office and there ain’t nothin’ the brotherhoods can do for you!!!.
What am I doing up at 12:24am?
I would think an ore mine would have a dedicated switcher on hand. Whether it’s owned by the railroad or the mine is another matter, it could go either way.
On my layout, my mining company not only owns the mine, but also the several miles of track to the next junction and town (since they are the ONLY customer on this part of the line), and they own an F7, an 0-6-0 switcher, a bunch of hopper cars, and a caboose. By any definition, they are actually a shortline serving themselves. They interchange with the branchline in the next town over. On my layout, either the mine’s crew or the other railroad (via trackage rights) would serve the mine, depending on who had a crew available, how high the priority was for the pickup, how much time the local crew had available and how much work they had to do, and my mood at the time.
Brad
What the orignal question referred to as “left hand stub” and “right hand stub” sidings are what are normally called a “facing point spur track” and “trailing point spur track”. The problem is, there is a train on his layout that has to put a car that’s behind the engine into a spur track that’s in front of the engine.
BTW about having guys move the car, in Britain and Ireland freight cars of IIRC 14 tons remained common into the 40’s-50’s (after the US had gone onto 40-50 ton cars) because that was how much one horse could move. It wasn’t uncommon in rural areas for a train drop off a car at a station/junction and then have a worker use a horse to move the car up a spur line to a business.
That’s the reason they had poling pockets on steam locomotives and r.r. cars.
CHUCK
Now I understand. I’ve been in this hobby for forty-five years and I don’t think, until today, I had ever encountered that terminology before!
If a long shove is out of order then the only feasible thing to do - except for a ‘Dutch’ drop which is a somewhat dangerous enterprise - is to move the cut farther up the line to a double ended side track - that’s usually referred to as a ‘siding’ - where the engine can shift to the opposite end of the cut and return back down the line - our facing point spur has now become a trailing point spur.
I have related the following before some months past but I will repeat it here.
In Eastern Idaho I was just a bit puzzled as to why a northbound freight dropped a cut of cars on a siding out in the boondocks. Then a southbound peddlar came wandering onto the scene, put these cars at the end of its train - behind the caboose, by the way - and moved them a few miles south and shoved them into an industrial spur. It then proceeded merrily on its way.
Sorry about not calling them by their right name. I agree right and left is a bit misleading. Facing point and trailing point, ok, I got it. Must have not gotten the gene with that knowledge upon birth, (and didn’t learn it in school either) 
But thanks again. I have a good handle on the problem. I have a downhill into the sidings, so a flying switch move is not out of the question (albiet risky). No room for a runaround here, and actually the ops on this is so interesting, I WANT to leave it and deal with it. Right now the plan is to put a switcher on that line. Anyone know of a an early diesel switcher and I mean REAL early (1930’s)
How about an Alco HH series switcher?
Anyone make one in N scale?
You could probably cut a Alco S1 and make it pretty close to the HH series…
Or if you’re willing to fudge 10 years, the S1 could be an option.
I was going to refrain from posting on this one… but…
I read the OP to be talking about a train running from Right to Left with connections to spurs diverging to the left and converging form the right. What is going on is then clear provided that you know what movement the train is making.
As far as I know “left hand switch” in Railway and Railroad parlance universally refers to a switch in which the left hand road curves. Similarly a “right hand switch” has the curved track on the right. You can then get a “3 way left hand switch” in which both curved roads are on the left side of the straight road. A “3 way right switch” is the opposite. Where the curves roads are on either side of the straight the switch is an “assymetric 3 way”.
If we have a track running directly east-west a “left hand switch” with the points at the west end will have the curved track turning northwards. With the points at the east end the curved track will turn south.
The “points” end of a switch is the “toe” while the “frog” or “common crossing” end is the “heal”.
The straight unbroken rail on one side of a switch is the “straight stock rail” while the curved unbroken rail on the opposite side is the “curved stock rail”.
You also have straight and curved switch rails.
That sorts out (most of) the physical aspects of switches.
The next thing to consider is how switches are understood from an operating point of view.
When operating the key reference to a switch is the DIRECTION OF TRAVEL.
Direction of travel takes two forms:-
- The nominated NORMAL direction of travel for traffic moving normally (right direction) on the track.
- The ACTUAL direction of travel of ANY movement at a specific time.
When walking toward a switch in the four foot way (in safe
The question was about prototype operations. No real railroad would have a delivery system for major bulk loads such as coal, ore,etc. with out a receivng track, an empties track, and an engine run around capability, i.e. double ended sidings. Since there is no way to turn a steam engine, the empties would have to be picked up on the return trip from wherever the engine could be turned. Ore cars would likely NEVER be included in a mixed freight so probably at least a wye would be needed near by.
For other loads, a local “turn” would almost always work the trailing point sidings in either direction. These would be out and back tripes that could be completed in one shift. In some cases, locals would leave two division points at the same time and meet in the middle.
Growing up on the Wabash/N&W during the 60s, “flying” cars, especially empties, was common to nearly the the point of being the rule rather than the exception. We lived about 200 feet from a siding that was mostly used to store empties…I could not count the times the sound of a reving up then quickly slowing locomotive was heard in the distance, followed by one or more empties rolling by on their own, into the siding, and either coatsing to a stop, or slamming into the cars already in the siding with a thunderous bang. I can remember my dad steaming mad when they would do it in the middle of the night…it sounded like they were coming through the side of the house.
This is probably not the most efficient moves, but here is a set of small pics (about 30k each) that shows some possible moves to pick up and set out (deliver/drop off) cars to both trailing and facing spurs on a layout:
A local turn has arrived with 8 cars to set out (yellow cars), 8 car to pick up (green cars): 
Stashing away a couple of cars on an available siding, to get some work space:
Picking up some outbound cars from a trailing spur:
Replacing them with new cars:
Picking up a car from a facing spur:
Setting out a car from the end of the train at a facing spur: 
Making a runaround move to get a car from the front of the train into a facing spur:
Smile,
Stein
Varnet said:
I would think that any appreciable movement on a main, ie outside yard limits, would require a caboose leading the freight cars being pushed.
No…As long as the shove is being protected by a trainman riding the leading car.
I don’t know if there’s any correlation with present-day railroading, but it’s not uncommon to see local freight today using this arrangement. I see a train like this all the time on a BNSF double-track main near my house, where there aren’t many run-around sidings, and blocking the opposing main for switching is rather impractical.
Yes many railroads still use fully functional caboose for long shoves
A common train would be: caboose, freight car(s), diesel, freight car(s), caboose. It looked odd the first time I saw it, but I like the operational possibilities with modeling such an arrangment!
Not always…Some times a industrial branch has more facing point switches then trailing…The local would leave the yard with the engine shoving the train…Protection for the shove was having the conductor and rear brakeman stand on the platform of the caboose sounding the caboose whistle for protected crossings or by flagging unprotected crossings.
Today its not uncommon to see a local with a engine at both ends of the train…This saves time by not having to make run around moves.
As a side note…In the days of steam the engine on a local,mine run or interchange run could return to the yard tender first…You see in some cases there was no way of turning the engine.