Duluth, Winnipeg and Pacific

Classic Trains General Discussion
1

To think you could ride a regular scheduled train, an International one at that, with overnight sleeping accommodations from Fort Francis, Ont. to Duluth, Minnesota boggles my mind as to how far removed from a civilized society we have managed to find ourselves in.

Thank you Classic Trains for todays picture. Good old Fort Francis.

Steam on “the Peg”

Pacific 5127, leased from parent Canadian National, pauses at Duluth, Winnipeg & Pacific’s elevated station (hidden behind train) in West Duluth, Minn., with the overnight accommodation from Fort Frances, Ont., in September 1954.
Philip R. Hastings photo

Also this area on the Ontario side was the CNR’s last great stand for the 2-10-2’s Sante Fe types, needed due to the hilly and rough terrain between Rainy River and Fort Francis. One is preserved in Rainy River, a bit over an hour to the East.

Last runs 1958-some early 1959.

2

Any chance the station is still there?

3

The Duluth Depot is a historic train station in Duluth, Minnesota

4

Sad but true, the United States is removed from being a civilized nation and has become an insane place on the planet not far from Hell itself.

Just look what we have today: A government in Washington D.C. that doesn’t work for We The People; human beings dying in Puerto Rico (remember the Berlin Air Lift when the Soviet Union cut this major German city off by land?): and now another mass killing, this time in Las Vegas; or to make matters worse, there’s still no way you can travel by train from Texas to Colorado or take another train from there North by Northwest so you can make a connection in Montana with the Empire Builder to reach a destination such as Spokane or Seattle, down the coast from there to Oregon or up Puget Sound to Vancouver, B.C. by rail in Century 21.

Indeed, a Sorry State of affairs!

5

Well I can’t and won’t comment or pass judgement on the political things and events, lets just keep it to the trains and railroad’s.

Not sure when this train was discontinued, and will search. At least as late as Sept. '54 you could take a sleeper between these points, Fort Frances and Duluth as well as countless other locations across our lands.

It seems to me there was a fast rush and came on very suddenly to get rid of these numerous trains everywhere as soon as possible, that they were perceived as being inefficient and old fashioned, that assets and manpower could be better used elsewhere. It was a corporate mindset. Yes, yes, we know that losing mail and express made it much worse.

Don’t tell me that the New York Central, and others, was in better shape after shedding so much of it’s “money losing passenger” trains.

That is just the “line” and does not pass the eye test one bit.

I think it was artificial, a created perception that suited the think alike lemmings. It really only happened in North America, no where else. Of course few will agree with me, being thoroughly and effectively brainwashed by the auto industry, the oil industry, Madison Avenue and money money money. Ike warned us all, even if it was a bit vague and cryptic.

I maintain we could have not rushed to judgement, held the railroads feet to the fire regarding passenger trains as to the original “deals” and charters, offered reasonable subsidies, offered degregulation in exchange, taken a more calmer keep it together philosophy.

Overall we would have had a kinder, gentler, more focused society and maintained our important services and structure.

Overnight service with express service, mail and us good folks would be most welcome and work well today if we had not dismantled everything. Alternate universe thinking, but we lost way way too much.

6

Miningman thanks for the info!

GS

7

ALL:

The DWP used the Omaha (CNW) station in Duluth.

From “RDC, The Budd Rail Diesel Car” by Duke and Keilty, Page 166: “Service was the discontinued in 1961, and the RDC was signed over to the Canadian National.” “Eventually it became part of the Via Rail Canada rolling stock.” Page 166 has a picture of the Omaha Chicago bound train with the DWP RDC on a very cold evening.

Ed Burns

8

Yes, knew it went to RDC’s…always the kiss of death. Trying to find out the last time it carried sleeping accommodations and standard passenger cars. Probably not to long after 1954…maybe another year.

Don’t know how many have been up to that area but the Lake of the Woods area from Rainy River/Fort Francis area up to Red Lake is outstanding and pristine.

That would have been a great trip in a sleeper, especially in winter, all toasty warm with your CNR wool blanket, whistle blowing away, gradually getting to your destination. A real life Polar Express!

9

Aside from the unfortunate, relatively early demise of its passenger service, the DW&P always had a strong freight business. A real diamond in the rough financial pictures of many Canadian National lines. Eventually, in some creative accounting CN merged it (on paper) with the Grand Trunk Western and Central Vermont, both chronic money-losers. The effect was that DW&P’s profits were cancelled out by the losses of the other two, and the combined corporation paid no U.S. income tax.

Its diesels (and the RDC) started out being painted in CN’s schemes, but this was later changed to GTW blue & orange with the slogan “delivered with pride” under the logo.

The company was further absorbed into CN in the early 1990s and lost its individual identity, but there are still a few boxcars rolling around out that have escaped repainting. Many more newer cars bear DWC or similar reporting marks, but are simply painted with the CN noodle. Another flag fallen, but not forgotten.

Today the ex-DWP is one of CN’s busier lines, and forms a key part of the Winnipeg-Chicago corridor.

Image result for dwc boxcarImage result for dwp boxcarImage result for duluth winnipeg pacific

10

The Santa Fe’s were the most powerful locomotives on CN, but were not speed demons. I’m told that even at 35-40 mph the rods & drivers were a fabulous blur, and the exhaust one continuous jet-like roar. Not sure if they were supposed to be run faster than that, but some guys obviously did.

I’ve always wanted to see one in person, but have yet to travel through the Fort Frances-Rainy River area. I will be sure to go that way on my next trip east.

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SD70M-2Dude-- It is an enchanting area. When you see the lay of the land you will understand well what those 2-10-2’s were up against. If they were not going up they were going down and rarely straight, always in curves. Added bonus for you is that it is all ex-Canadian Northern territory, They should have called it the up, down and around.

You will know instantly that you are not in Kansas anymore…or Alberta.

Go South from Red Lake to Fort Francis and take the “Moms” highway to Thunder Bay…no traffic, very light, nice leisurely trip and be sure to stop in Atikokan and check out the yard and branch lines breaking off.

Quiet area now but very historic. Wish to heck I could have seen those days there, say during the war, and after, until late 50’s.

12

The introduction of the Budd RDC was the railroads last ditch effort to continue passenger service during the post-WWII era when John Q. Public began to use his own “private car” (Chevy, Ford, etc.) instead of waiting down at the station for a train that in many cases prevented him from returning home in the late evening be it from his job of work or having spent a day out with the family due to the lack of the railroad to provide a realsitic schedule.

The RDC also saved the railroads the added cost of crews and fuel. If memory serves me well, the Western Pacific maintained the longest run of RDCs in the U.S. while in historic New England, both Boston & Maine and New Haven ran trains with muliple RDCs on runs. Not to be outdone, even poor old Katy operated a single RDC on the loney run between the Texas towns of Denison and Wichita Falls.

Even The Friendly Southern Pacific subsidiary Northwestern Pacific operated one on their line and “On the Atchison, Topeka and the Santa Fe” a dual RDC set started their career in California on the Surf Line. The list continues and now in Century 21 we have an entirely new form of rail diesel cars returning to rails all across the United States and Canada as human beings re-discover the train again. Why, even a few elderly members of the original RDC family can still be found as they continue to run off miles in North America.

Like it or not, it’s called Progress…not only on the C&O!

13

ALL:

My post about the DWP in Duluth brings to light another question about stations.

Please see my new post regard that issue.

Ed Burns

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SD70M-2Dude-- Nice pics. Thanks. Hope the few boxcars still around in DW&P remain as is…always exciting to catch one in a consist.

Trinity–Well as I stated, thats progress as defined by big auto, big oil and spin. That did not happen anywhere else.

NP Eddie–threw in my 2 cents on your thread.

Cold and snow up here…brrr…in for the long haul now. Got a new all wool overcoat, not an import, made in Canada, heavy, warm, bring it on.

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Miningman:

I remember penny candy, but thanks for your 2 cents!

Ed Burns

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Yeah, penny candy…we sure used to drive those store owners nuts with our " two of those, one of those, one of those, …how much do I have left now ? '…take our little brown paper bag and compare with friends.

Now we look at credit card balances and freak out every month, and pick up piles of pills at the pharmacist. Yeesh.

17

One interesting bit about DW&P was the newsprint boxcars with the “DWC” reporting mark. They were stencilled as Canadian built for international service only. The Peg may have been a CN subsidiary but it was incorporated in the United States.

18

Yes, both Canada and the US had (have) a large presence in each others countries. Sometimes in full view, sometimes hidden in corporations and reporting marks. In my hometown there was Pere Marquette, Wabash and New York Central all very visible. The CASO is legendary, but Wabash and PM go back a long way. The Wabash even had a scheduled passenger service, all within Southern Ontario. Later C&O and N&W and Penn Central, then Conrail.

19

C&O…for Progress…CSX for…?

Regarding penny candy. My wooden nickels weren’t worth very much and even less so after an angry army of termites had attacked them turning same into a pile of sawdust.

I switched a lot of CN and DWC boxcars in Texas between 1968 and 76 while employed on the AT&SF that were loaded with news print destined for The Dallas Morning News in Big D. The tracks that served the loading dock were laid out on a slight grade which made it next to impossible to couple up cars equipped with cushion underframes which resulted in lots of naughty four letter words in the process.

After the empties had been pulled, loads spotted with hand brakes set, we’d cut for beans making a bee line to the News’ air conditioned lunch room to cool off both bodies and mouths.

Any Dallas railfans know if the “News” receives news print by rail in 2017?

20

ALL:

Nowdays, a quarter will buy you a “penny” candy.

If my memory serves my correctly a “Fallen Flags” story about the DWP appeared in a “Classic Trains” magazine one or two years ago. A good article.

Ed Burns